Quote:Sadly you're right. I posted in a thread in GD the other day stating how DOM players find trends, champ imbalance and kit flaws, months ahead of SR. But Riot refuse to listen. Within 2 weeks of release DOM players realised how broken Jayce was and how stupid his kit is. Took the SR "pros" like 4 months to finally figure it out.
I've talked (internally) quite a bit about how incredibly difficult this game is to balance in comparison to competing MOBAs (having worked on them). It's because the variance between games is dependent on a lot more factors--AD/AP scaling, runes, and masteries being the biggest offenders. Dominion is interesting because it generally presents the maximized balance case since gold flow is so high. It's a lot different for SR, because there's a bigger focus on PvE play rather than PvP, and the small bursts of PvP can shift the direction of the entire game.
Quote:I'm personally of the opinion that Blackfire Torch has no place in this game due to it making many strong champions even stronger, and most balanced champions still balanced. It is a mess of an item, as I'm sure you'll have found today by spectating featured matches where even Malphites, Yoricks, and Urgots are using BFT with success.
Also, what was the point of reducing mana regen on this map? This didn't impact the top set of champions at all, but it did nerf the balanced and underpowered sets. Kha'Zix, Jayce, Diana, Darius, Maokai, Teemo, Lulu, Wukong and Jax are all still manaless champions as far as any competent player is concerned, and manatank Kassadin couldn't care less about regen. On the flipside, Viktor-level/style mages are having even more issues which the new items don't really help. Reducing the map's chalice effect only increased the distance between the OPs and the non-OPs.
Nome, we have a community here that has theorycrafted solutions and mathed out tons of options all the way since the beginning of the year. Feel free to ask us for feedback on ideas, because we have a lot of constructive discussion to give, and some of the high EU players are also here on the NA forums to centralize communication.
I like to balance by hitting highs and lows first, then whittling it down closer. Inching only in one direction actually tends to be more disastrous, believe it or not. If BFT proves to be too strong (yes, it probably is), then it'll be changed one way or another. Ultimately, for the health of the map, I believe this is the way to go.
Quote:Its my opinion that most of the tweaking that happens to champs, champs that are shared across many maps, is done by taking into consideration the high level play/competitive SR scene. With that in mind, shouldn't the changes made to Dominion take into consideration our high level/competitive scene as well? I mean I know you want to balance around the 99 percent which is the non-pro Dominion players, but that isn't the community's fault, its the fact that we've yet to have ranked Dominion. (which is a whole other topic).
You're right and wrong on the champion tweaks. Most of the numbers-heavy changes are targeted towards the SR competitive scene, but the most work-intensive, thoughtful changes are directed towards the community as a whole. That's because they tend to involve issues that go beyond a few numbers.
Quote:I guess that's true. I was just a bit turned off by what he said, considering it's the high-elo people that are advocating for change - not so much low-elo, who have been adapting all along without really saying much. I guess that's what happens, though, when the vocal majority is a pretty small group.
Quote:Sauron, I think you are mistaken at the intention of the mana regen attack. I think the idea was to buff non mana champions. I do not know if it was neccesary though.
Riotnome: The best way proven over years and years of gaming to change the paradigm of the non competitive players is to have a competitive scene that the casual play respect so they can look at it and learn "how the game is really played". So You do not want to discuss causation, because you know the history talks against the current terrible decision.
Quote:Everyone I run into in high Elo seems to be ready to quit now too. I can't say I don't sympathize. "RiotNome" is quickly becoming the sarcastic meme response in allchat, and a discussion on how specious the changes so far are comes up every 7 or so minutes in the DD chat.
BFT needs to be hotfixed or removed. It serves nothing other than to cause frustration from the players of champions it is supposed to help, and to cause resentment from players of all Elos because it confirms their feedback isn't wanted.
Look, we don't mind us being a testing ground during this pre-season, but don't act like the issues with the map haven't been identified because buzzword buzzword buzzword. We aren't interviewing you; we're trying to help you do the right thing. We know exactly what's wrong with the map and what changes need to be made. Many of us are game designers ourselves, after all.
What's your plan to stop Dominion from hemorrhaging players? What fixes can we do that addresses the concerns of the top 0.001% of the Dominion community that will fix the perception issues of the 99.99%?? What would you suggest we do to convince everyone that's quit on Dominion to come back? How do we message to players that Shaco isn't the best champ on Dominion? How do we address the complaint that a lot of players have of the lack of progression? The lack of game phases? The lack of differentiation from game to game? You focus on Blackfire Torch, but among the sea of real problems that Dominion has, that really should be barely a consideration. It's imba. OK, we nerf it next patch. Hell, I already did.
These aren't buzzwords. This is the reality of Dominion. We're in do-or-die mode. If you really love Dominion, then subscribe yourself to the program and dig down deep. The rug's going to be pulled out from beneath your feet over and over again, and you'll have to get used to that.
Quote:Well, most people have been begging for ranked ladder for quite awhile.
1. Ranked makes up a negligible amount of our playerbase for SR and TT. The vast majority of our players do not play ranked, and have displayed no intention to.
2. Now, the argument can be made that the LACK of ranked has negative implications like discouraging organized play and competitive interest. But this is where we run into the causation issue.
I'm very well aware that the Dominion community wants ranked real bad--I do too. No really, I do! I stick up for you guys because I'm passionate about Dominion getting attention. I have my own reasons and intentions, but first and foremost I believe it's an important step to community stabilization. But don't use it as a scapegoat for why the mode is unpopular, because you're assuming causation when #1 (and I'm fully aware you guys don't have access to the statistics) speaks quite to the contrary.
Quote:In every game, the competitive community is 1% or less, so no surprises there, you are ignoring how that 1% affects the other 99%.
I could explain again but i would just repeat my post, read the second part about evidence plz.
If you claim that balance perception is a problem, ranked is the solution, even if only 0,1% of players play it. The number doesn't surprise me, i know it because its true in every game in existence, and it doesn't change my point at all.
The solution of casuals having false perception of balance or game properties, its to create evidence that change the perception, for that you need ranked.
If you claim there is a problem that is not related to false perception (like you claim lack of game phases and lack of progression which are true) you can change that, if it makes a better game, but the property that is welcome of dominion is that it doesn't have those, to me bad properties. So the solution doesn't seem to be to fix it either.
For the other things you guys bring up, YES, I will eventually talk about those, and YES, I will involve the community in finding a solution.
Sorry, I wasn't questioning your dedication to the map. It was more addressed to the Dominion community as a whole.
We're kind of in crunch mode for S3, so I don't want to focus too much on this thread anymore, as BFT is getting nerfed already (-5% CDR, -5 pen, -7 max charges, and possibly changes to burn application). But I do agree with you on promotional things--you have no idea how much I agree with you there. Yes, Dominion could use a lot more exposure, and much of the onus is on us (Riot) to give it that. We can talk more in-game.
Quote:So upgarding from haunting Guise will cause you to lose magic pen? That's a bad idea imo as losing stats for upgrading feels bad which is why no item does that except Bloodrazer (kinda) which is actually getting removed). Maybe if the pen is a bad you should remove Guise from the recipe.