Statikk has responded several times, but the most pertinent post is this:
Quote:Here's the current value we have the ambient gold change at:
Ambient Gold increased to 16 Gold per 10 from 13 Gold per 10
Please take this into account if you want to do the calculations.
Note that lane minions have also lost gold value, so laners do not have any new advantage over junglers in this regard.
Gold values in the new jungle are actually, on average, less than they were before. While scaling has increased significantly, this doesn't make up for the decrease until well after the mid-game has already started.
- Wraiths: 33g/4g (45g total)
- Wolves: 44g/5g (54g total)
- Golems: 40g/15g (55g total)
- Total: 154g
- Wraiths: 25g/3g (34g total)
- Wolves: 40g/4g (48g total)
- Golems: 45g/15g (60g total)
- Total: 142g
It is difficult to reconcile the reality of this situation with the following statements from Statikk:
Quote:Next, we’re also going to significantly increase the rewards (gold and XP) and scaling difficulty (health and damage that the monsters gain over time) of the jungle as a game progresses. This way junglers who shift their focus toward farming the jungle efficiently can acquire gold and experience faster. This opens up the jungle to many of the more damage-focused and gold-reliant champions like Master Yi who need to scale into the later parts of the game.
- Wraith camp gold rewards have been reduced and golem and wolf camp gold rewards have been increased to better match their respective difficulty and convenience.
I highly recommend that Riot reexamine their math, models, and assumptions regarding jungling. As it stands we're close to repeating, and even outdoing, the mistakes of the initial Season 2 revamp.
We had to slightly lower the gold on the first clear due to the increase of ambient GP10 we put on the map. It seems like we left that undocumented.
I'll get back to you guys with the exact numbers, but once you factor that into the calculations early jungle gold should be very similar. We're not looking to buff the jungler early game in any way, shape, or form. If it's a nerf, then let's fix that.
Quote:When you say ambient gold increased do you mean that champions now get more than 14 gp10 (84g per minute) passively?
For your reference Statikk, here are some numbers I took past the first clear with exact camp spawn times, compared to what their values would have been on live.
- Wolves (@8:02): 44g/5g (54g Total)
- Wraiths (@8:21): 28g/3g (37g Total)
- Golems (@8:50): 51g/17g (68g Total)
- Wolves (@8:02): 47g/5g (56g Total)
- Wraiths (@8:21): 37g/4g (49g Total)
- Golems (@8:50): 43g/16g (59g Total)
So even after 7 minutes of scaling the PBE is still behind live by 5g per clear. This is really my chief concern, if you want farming the new jungle to be worthwhile it shouldn't remain behind Live during the period where a jungler will most likely be able to farm. Past ~12:00 game time towers start to fall and the demand for map presence alongside the potential reduced safety of the jungle make farming less likely.
I did notice the PBE buff camps were worth 3g more each than on Live, but this is a once every 5 minute windfall and past the first clear the jungler will typically pass blue to mid anyway.
On Summoner's Rift (and on any map for that matter of fact), there is an ambient gold flow that all champions get once the game begins spawning minions (1:30). This amount is independent of the GP10 items which further increase this value.
This base value has been increased on the map in order to help out champions who don't get to kill tons of creeps. In order to keep overall gold flow relatively the same for the other champions, we simultaneously also slightly reduced the base value of both lane minions and jungle monsters to compensate.
From what I hear, we may have not gotten the ambient gold increase onto the PBE build last night. I'll be looking into that.
Quote:I can tell immediately that makes up the difference. I'll update the first post accordingly.
Well if the numbers still aren't working out. I'm happy to throw the right amount of gold back onto the monsters to fix the issue.
Thanks for bringing up this concern.
Quote:what do you mean "if it's a nerf"? if you give similar or even lesser gold for clearing harder camps that take more time and do more damage then how is it not super obviously a clear nerf?
We don't intend for the overall first clear's gold to be much less than it was before even if it is taking longer.
At the end of the day, we're looking to gauge the impact and power level junglers have on the early game overall not necessarily just gold flow.
Quote:If you follow the "standard" route (Wolves->Blue->Wraiths->Wolves->Red->Wolves->Golems) the raw value of the camps on Live is 405g versus the PBE's 382g. However, since it takes at least 2-2.5 minutes to clear the extra 36-45g you get passively should make up the difference.
At this point I'm perfectly satisfied that the numbers check out. I don't want to impose on you, but if you could also disclose the gold/exp scaling on the small camps it would save me a weekend of trouble attempting to find the exact numbers myself through testing.
The jungle isn't getting nerfed relative to laning as lane values also decreased, while jungle scaling has substantially increased. If anything junglers should be able to better keep up with lanes nows.
So if Big Wolf used to gain +10 gold and +5 XP to its base rewards per minute, it would roughly now gain +15 gold and +7.5 XP now. Just an example, don't really have the time to compile all the exact numbers. Working on fixing the current PBE bugs like jungle monsters attacking untargetable minions.
Quote:There's something I don't understand about this ambient gold. Its the gold you get by doing nothing, right? Just letting time pass. Is that right? If so, wouldn't that change affect everyone and not only junglers? Or the gold we get from minions is less than before?
Quote:+50% base stats each time or +50% of the new value?
Ie: if the base is 100 gold and 100 experience, you'll get +50 to each teach time.
If it's the latter it would be +50 on both the first time, +75 the second time +112.5 the next time, and so on.
Also, can you see something arising where the jungle is considered the carry's resource mid game where he just farms it all day long (while others cover the lanes) because of the increased gold and exp?
As far as carries transitioning to jungle farming, this may be the case, but even then they can't be everywhere (so you either clear other parts of the jungle or take the lane they abandoned) and if you have invested in jungle items you should be clearing more efficiently than they can.
We'll just have to see.