Edit - not enjoying basically being forced to take the machete and still struggle
Edit 2- It's not looking so good for the first clear and a few junglers. Some junglers, like Diana, are doing well and considering the jungle will scale up and give more gold as the game goes on she'll benefit in the end!
Edit 3 - Darius fastest jungler so far. I have no tried Dr. Mundo or Shyvana
Edit 4 - Verdict on the jungle is that it's not "bad" nor is it "good" - it is different. A few junglers that we've gotten used to are going to be snuffed out and other junglers are going to get better or stay the same. The speed junglers Dr Mundo and Shyvana have the same clear times (albeit sustain hits) and will benefit from increased gold. The sustained ones like Warwick and Fiddle became more attractive and versatile picks. Then you have lee Sin who so far is actually WORSE in the new jungle. He cannot sustain himself and his speed took a nose dive.
Edit 5 - Spoilers of course: The following videos are preparing and are queued for upload (takes awhile to upload btw): 2 Lee Sin videos done, Old School, The Ganker Supreme, The Fragile One, The Dark Horses, The Fire Starters, The Chosen One, The Hopefuls, The Manly Men, The Fast Junglers, The Troll. You take a guess at who is who.
Day 1
The crash site is a mess. I'm alive, but for how long? Nobody else is around. It's not looking good so far :/
Day 2
I found a machete in the ruins of the cargo hold, but it's still a struggle to cut through the dense foliage of this world.
Day 3
This place is brutal. It took me all day to create enough of a clear path to move deeper into the jungle. Good news though, Diana managed to make her way to the crash site and doesn't appear much worse for wear.
Day 6
I had a fright today as Darius came crashing out from the undergrowth with an axe and a trio of wolves slung over his shoulder. One was almost as large as the man himself... I didn't enjoy his company before, but it's comforting to see a friendly face. At least we'll eat well tonight. Still no sign of Shyvana or the ship's doctor.
Day 13
The more time I spend in this jungle, the more I feel like it's not so bad. Not good, either, mind you, just different from the forests of our home. Doctor Mundo and Shyvana finally came stumbling out of the brush last night as we were cooking dinner. Apparently the smoke from the fires led them to our location. They told me that Warwick and Fiddlesticks were starting a settlement north of our location, shelter and food enough for all of us, found in the wreckage of their own larger ship. The others want to strike out, but I feel hesitant. We haven't seen any signs of Lee and I haven't given up hope for him yet...
To be fair - it greatly increases as the game goes on.
Stonewall - we've found in internal tests that junglers end up with a lot more gold in most games, but I wanted to see what your experience has been like. Has that been true for your games?
I'm still holding my full judgement till I get to throw down with more experienced players. The commentary on the Lee Sin was too harsh. I should have waited till I played more champions. When I got to Darius and Diana I was thrilled. I knew Diana would be a jungler that could possibly benefit but Darius ended up doing well too.
That said there isn't any way to "measure" the gold gains yet. I mean if I just go into a custom game and continuously clear it over and over then yeah I could probably see me gaining a lot of gold. However in a real game I'm sure I won't be allowed to do that.
There is where the problem lies though. PBE games, with respect to everyone in there, is generally full of players who aren't exactly "good." Either that or the teams are mismatched and you can't truly gauge anything.
I hope that sometime this weekend I can get some people in the PBE to join a serious 5v5 custom fest and we can test out how the new jungle holds up. I want to experience being invaded, experience being forced to gank and all that jazz.
When I jungled uninterrupted (aka just fiddling around) I had this feeling that I could outright skip gold items and had this reminiscent feeling of Season 1. Though I still felt I will need to buy a few gold efficient items because everyone and their mother will want to kill me.
So with that said - with some testing still pending - I did feel the gold gains and I do think it will be fine as long as the lanes don't require massive amounts of intervention aside from player failure. The gold gains will only truly be felt if the lanes don't need to be babysat 24/7. If the laner needs help because they got outplayed then yeah that's fine. Forcing out a farming jungler is one way of defeating them. However if your the lane is so dependent on snowballing (like it is in season 2) and you have to essentially camp it still then the gold gains won't help every jungler.
I want to ask something though - Is Riot okay with the possibility of there being Control Junglers with the capability of utterly shutting down the enemy jungler? There used to be this clear cut triad of junglers before and the control jungler filled the role of map control and making sure the enemy jungler was pinned down and unable to function.
Edit - It's in bold
Edit 2 - Admittedly I think Riot wants people to be a bit more patient right now with all the changes before spouting travesty. I admit that I am guilty of having done that with Lee Sin but I had set my expectations for him to be way too high. Even then I haven't given up on Lee Sin. I feel I can tweak around how i work the jungle with him and things can be better. With all these changes coming at us at once, we all need to adopt more patience than usual.
Yeah - that's where we want to look most closely. While we know the raw numbers and have had testing, the circumstances that millions of games show can help us see if our methods are successful or not. We expect less early ganks from the jungle now, because the early game impact of them was so high and we wanted to lower it - players' expectations will need to align with what's optimal again. This applies to all the preseason changes really.
To answer your question, I think we are OK with more control-type junglers, but the scale of how harshly they control is the adjustment point for us to watch. Stealing the big monster is harder now, but even more important - meaning strong counterjungling has the potential to be devastating.
I don't know if the extra gold gain is supposed to be higher after 11 minutes but I ran around as Shyvana just farming nonstop only my jungle.
At exactly 11 minutes (even shows in the footage) I obtained 2825 gold. That prompted me to ask other players to do the same thing but with LIVE Shyvana. They obtained 2800 gold - give or take a few because of inevitable inconsistencies. We basically earned the same amount of gold.
Even if gold gains increase after 11 minutes - I'm sure we both know the jungler won't be allowed to farm uninterrupted at that point (or even before 11 minutes anyways) or the laners will start sapping it themselves.
That's the breakpoint we're using currently since early gold gains aren't bad here - the later game ones are tragically low though. This may need adjustment as we look more, but it's a reasonable starting point.
Additionally, we do expect a bit more gold on "safer" junglers since they disrupt less for ganks.
The biggest problem I see with the actual S3 jungle, it's not :
-that the difficulty is higher,
-that you have to start machete
-that you get the same gold than in S2 up to 11 min
Nope, the problem is that you relegate junglers into farming for 15 mins so you can get gold to spend in jungling items (exagerating) that are not as useful for real fights.
The problem is that you adjusted the global ambient gold up, but yet junglers will do the exact same money than before while laners see their income rise...
What is it sposed to mean?
And a last question, why can't you let some junglers lvl up + get gold as fast/a bit faster, than laners? SOME junglers.
We also decreased lane minion gold, meaning most laners will see similar gold, but the difference in 30 CS won't be as big between players. This will also open up more cross-lane ganking.
The thing is these numbers are easy to adjust, and our expectation is that we'll be changing things a lot after it comes out. Not day-1 (as learning curve is a factor and I don't trust a first-day analysis due to low exposure), but we'll be pretty aggressive.
I'm trying out the new jungle in the pbe
Edit - not enjoying basically being forced to take the machete and still struggle
Edit 2- It's not looking so good for the first clear and a few junglers. Some junglers, like Diana, are doing well and considering the jungle will scale up and give more gold as the game goes on she'll benefit in the end!
Edit 3 - Darius fastest jungler so far. I have no tried Dr. Mundo or Shyvana
Edit 4 - Verdict on the jungle is that it's not "bad" nor is it "good" - it is different. A few junglers that we've gotten used to are going to be snuffed out and other junglers are going to get better or stay the same. The speed junglers Dr Mundo and Shyvana have the same clear times (albeit sustain hits) and will benefit from increased gold. The sustained ones like Warwick and Fiddle became more attractive and versatile picks. Then you have lee Sin who so far is actually WORSE in the new jungle. He cannot sustain himself and his speed took a nose dive.
Edit 5 - Spoilers of course: The following videos are preparing and are queued for upload (takes awhile to upload btw): 2 Lee Sin videos done, Old School, The Ganker Supreme, The Fragile One, The Dark Horses, The Fire Starters, The Chosen One, The Hopefuls, The Manly Men, The Fast Junglers, The Troll. You take a guess at who is who.
Edit 6 - Playlist and further discussion here http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...review_jungle/
The crash site is a mess. I'm alive, but for how long? Nobody else is around. It's not looking good so far :/
Day 2
I found a machete in the ruins of the cargo hold, but it's still a struggle to cut through the dense foliage of this world.
Day 3
This place is brutal. It took me all day to create enough of a clear path to move deeper into the jungle. Good news though, Diana managed to make her way to the crash site and doesn't appear much worse for wear.
Day 6
I had a fright today as Darius came crashing out from the undergrowth with an axe and a trio of wolves slung over his shoulder. One was almost as large as the man himself... I didn't enjoy his company before, but it's comforting to see a friendly face. At least we'll eat well tonight. Still no sign of Shyvana or the ship's doctor.
Day 13
The more time I spend in this jungle, the more I feel like it's not so bad. Not good, either, mind you, just different from the forests of our home. Doctor Mundo and Shyvana finally came stumbling out of the brush last night as we were cooking dinner. Apparently the smoke from the fires led them to our location. They told me that Warwick and Fiddlesticks were starting a settlement north of our location, shelter and food enough for all of us, found in the wreckage of their own larger ship. The others want to strike out, but I feel hesitant. We haven't seen any signs of Lee and I haven't given up hope for him yet...
That said there isn't any way to "measure" the gold gains yet. I mean if I just go into a custom game and continuously clear it over and over then yeah I could probably see me gaining a lot of gold. However in a real game I'm sure I won't be allowed to do that.
There is where the problem lies though. PBE games, with respect to everyone in there, is generally full of players who aren't exactly "good." Either that or the teams are mismatched and you can't truly gauge anything.
I hope that sometime this weekend I can get some people in the PBE to join a serious 5v5 custom fest and we can test out how the new jungle holds up. I want to experience being invaded, experience being forced to gank and all that jazz.
When I jungled uninterrupted (aka just fiddling around) I had this feeling that I could outright skip gold items and had this reminiscent feeling of Season 1. Though I still felt I will need to buy a few gold efficient items because everyone and their mother will want to kill me.
So with that said - with some testing still pending - I did feel the gold gains and I do think it will be fine as long as the lanes don't require massive amounts of intervention aside from player failure. The gold gains will only truly be felt if the lanes don't need to be babysat 24/7. If the laner needs help because they got outplayed then yeah that's fine. Forcing out a farming jungler is one way of defeating them. However if your the lane is so dependent on snowballing (like it is in season 2) and you have to essentially camp it still then the gold gains won't help every jungler.
I want to ask something though - Is Riot okay with the possibility of there being Control Junglers with the capability of utterly shutting down the enemy jungler? There used to be this clear cut triad of junglers before and the control jungler filled the role of map control and making sure the enemy jungler was pinned down and unable to function.
Edit - It's in bold
Edit 2 - Admittedly I think Riot wants people to be a bit more patient right now with all the changes before spouting travesty. I admit that I am guilty of having done that with Lee Sin but I had set my expectations for him to be way too high. Even then I haven't given up on Lee Sin. I feel I can tweak around how i work the jungle with him and things can be better. With all these changes coming at us at once, we all need to adopt more patience than usual.
To answer your question, I think we are OK with more control-type junglers, but the scale of how harshly they control is the adjustment point for us to watch. Stealing the big monster is harder now, but even more important - meaning strong counterjungling has the potential to be devastating.
I don't know if the extra gold gain is supposed to be higher after 11 minutes but I ran around as Shyvana just farming nonstop only my jungle.
At exactly 11 minutes (even shows in the footage) I obtained 2825 gold. That prompted me to ask other players to do the same thing but with LIVE Shyvana. They obtained 2800 gold - give or take a few because of inevitable inconsistencies. We basically earned the same amount of gold.
Even if gold gains increase after 11 minutes - I'm sure we both know the jungler won't be allowed to farm uninterrupted at that point (or even before 11 minutes anyways) or the laners will start sapping it themselves.
Additionally, we do expect a bit more gold on "safer" junglers since they disrupt less for ganks.
-that the difficulty is higher,
-that you have to start machete
-that you get the same gold than in S2 up to 11 min
Nope, the problem is that you relegate junglers into farming for 15 mins so you can get gold to spend in jungling items (exagerating) that are not as useful for real fights.
The problem is that you adjusted the global ambient gold up, but yet junglers will do the exact same money than before while laners see their income rise...
What is it sposed to mean?
And a last question, why can't you let some junglers lvl up + get gold as fast/a bit faster, than laners? SOME junglers.
The thing is these numbers are easy to adjust, and our expectation is that we'll be changing things a lot after it comes out. Not day-1 (as learning curve is a factor and I don't trust a first-day analysis due to low exposure), but we'll be pretty aggressive.