@IronStylus: I am very disappointed in you and the art team.

  • EDIT: Based on forum consensus, I have uploaded new original concept art for a Riot champ that everyone would approve of judging by this thread.

    EDIT: 448 downvotes - I sure am popular! I don't want to take way your boobs, people, stop freaking out. I just want some other options.

    EDIT: Made this post, went to bed, and it exploded. +83 downvotes and 27 pages later I don't know quite where to start. Not sure why I'm getting downvotes unless people are just assuming that I'm "anti-boobs" - which is not true. Fact is, Riot has made two female champs with huge breasts that did not need breasts as part of their character design. Nami and Elise are not seductresses - they don't need huge racks. I have no problem with fantasy and I understand why characters like MF or Ahri need to be boobilicious but huge breasts make no sense for a majority of Riot's female characters.


    After all of the comments you have made about giving us more female body types, you release two female champions one after another with huge cleavage on display.

    Why did Elise need huge breasts that literally HEAVE up and down in her login screen? She is a spider - the perfect opportunity for you guys to make a truly monstrous female champion.

    I thought to myself, "Ok, maybe the next female champ will be better."

    I just saw Nami's in game model and art. Again, we have prominent breasts on display for absolutely zero reason. You could have gone a number of other directions with this and made it more unique and much much cooler without making another BOOBFEST champ.

    I remember after Elise came out people were disappointed about her character design and you replied to a forum thread saying that you would address our concerns.

    They weren't address and now we have Nami. I probably won't even buy her although I main support. I just can't support Riot saying one thing and then doing another as far as female champ design anymore.

    EDIT: Here are some screenshots for those that are wondering what I'm talking about because Nami is "omg lol a fish so how could she have boobs."

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xgAsff_kG2U/UKXPfvpOEAI/AAAAAAAAKAY/sEKFM3QoyQY/s1600/nami.png

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-z8dPIbhN9Hc/UKXSFC0ySUI/AAAAAAAAKAw/I3H0ZR_0VvY/s1600/mermmy.png

    Also, check out the video of Nami in action next to Kat - Kat seems like she'd be a much more sexualized character but Nami's breasts are much more prominently on display and more obvious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-CfHApTyBM
  • 50 pages.. no way I can read every one of these posts. To sum up though, despite what you may think, I am not the single point of failure in a scenario where a busty lady makes it through our pipeline. I'm here to be one of many voices that chimes in when appropriate. Can I flip a table or two? Absolutely, if I deem it unnecessary. I really wasn't too terribly concerned about Nami because, well, I think she's a cool design.

    Did I notice the ruffles revealing some fish flesh? Yeah, I saw it months ago. Did I think it was particularly a good idea to poo-poo the design when it was on its way, when it was gathering momentum, and when it was being passionately worked on by the artist? Hell no. This will be this particular artist's first champion ever in the game. It's her show in that regard. I didn't find the cleavage to be a monumental red flag.

    When I saw the concept I was like.. look at this stuff, isn't it neat? Wouldn't you think this concept's complete? Wouldn't you think she's the girl, the girl that has, everything? Look at those frills, how they unfold. How many wonders can one mermaid hold? Looking around here you think, sure, she's got everything. She's got flippers and scepters a plenty. She's got dashes and splashes galore. You want complementary curves? She's got twenty. But who cares, no big deal, she wants more.

    She wants to be where the players are, she wants to see, wants to see them fighting, thinking inside of those, what do you call them? Oh, brains! Flipping to mid you don't get to far. Supports are required for healing, casting, strolling along on that.. what's that word again? Lane! Up where they toss, up where they stun, up where they lane all day in the sun, wandering free, wished she could be, part of that role.

    What would she pay, if she could play, out of those waters? What sort of gift, would let her lift, up to the game? Betcha in the rift, they get the drift, that they appreciate their healers. Crowd controllers, supporting rollers, ready to sustain, and ready to help with Carry's job. Lock up the gankers and get some assists. What's a Baron, and how does it, what's the word? Buff! When's it enough? Wouldn't they love, love to play some support up above?

    Out of the sea.

    Wished she could be.

    Part of that roll.



    ..tune in next time when I explain our champion creation process akin to how the mice put together Cinderella's dress.
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    Originally Posted by Zerglinator View Post
    .
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    *bows*
  • wow...Ironstylus....you went there...
  • Quote:
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    Originally Posted by IronStylus View Post
    When I saw the concept I was like.. look at this stuff, isn't it neat? Wouldn't you think this concept's complete? Wouldn't you think she's the girl, the girl that has, everything? Look at those frills, how they unfold. How many wonders can one mermaid hold? Looking around here you think, sure, she's got everything. She's got flippers and scepters a plenty. She's got dashes and splashes galore. You want complementary curves? She's got twenty. But who cares, no big deal, she wants more.

    She wants to be where the players are, she wants to see, wants to see them fighting, thinking inside of those, what do you call them? Oh, brains! Flipping to mid you don't get to far. Supports are required for healing, casting, strolling along on that.. what's that word again? Lane! Up where they toss, up where they stun, up where they lane all day in the sun, wandering free, wished she could be, part of that role.

    What would she pay, if she could play, out of those waters? What sort of gift, would let her lift, up to the game? Betcha in the rift, they get the drift, that they appreciate their healers. Crowd controllers, supporting rollers, ready to sustain, and ready to help with Carry's job. Lock up the gankers and get some assists. What's a Baron, and how does it, what's the word? Buff! When's it enough? Wouldn't they love, love to play some support up above?

    Out of the sea.

    Wished she could be.

    Part of that roll.
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    You're rehired.
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    Originally Posted by parentheses View Post
    I don't understand why I have to be the focus of such vitriol for making a thread like this one. If people keep making the same thread week in and week out, doesn't that mean that the issue is still an issue?

    Yes, a huge part of the community likes trashy champs because they like breasts. I don't hate on breasts in general. I hate on sticking breasts on champs that don't need them and a lack of variety. Does League want to expand even further and welcome a wider variety of people? They're going to have to display a wider variety of champs that appeal to a variety of different people.
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    No, it means some people have a very vocal opinion and want to express it until it is resolve to their personal satisfaction. That may or may not align with what is right for our game and our players.

    Excuse me for a moment, I need to speak very candidly about this issue and I may be representing my personal (as opposed to Riot) views here;

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but IronStylus has essentially mentioned that they're looking at fixing things like similar silhouettes and other shape-language that lessens variety - but while keeping a stylistic consistency to League of Legends. This character has a fish for a body, but you're so over-focused on the breasts issue that you can't see the forest for the trees. Therefore, this issue is not in the interest of the player-base from this perspective, but instead is a crusade of some social morality angle that doesn't have anything to do with game development.

    All of the male characters (that we're happy with...) have strong musculature and other traditionally powerful, male features. All of our females have identifiable femininity in their forums, and that is played up or down based on the archetype. Nami is one of the better-received champion sneak peeks we've seen, so players enjoy it, and accomplishes variety from a lot of angles.

    For context, did you know Miss Fortune is the most popular character among female League players? Sona is #2 - something that is appealing to the eye is more aspirational and has a higher "cool quotient" than things that are not - even without hormones in the equation (unless their cool is based on an opposing feature (Kog'Maw, for example)).

    We want to offer variety, and earlier this year we talked a lot about improving that. A mermaid is pretty varied when compared to other female champions, and if it has breasts, or not isn't something I think is a focal point of things that actually matter - especially when we do have strong female characters like Diana, Leona or Riven.

    The art team's thoughts as a whole may deviate from what I just posted (they know more about forms and shape language than I by miles), but if we do provide variety, and we do provide good alternatives to exposed characters, then from a holistic standpoint, I'd call that successful. If some people want to talk about the philosophic nature of how portrayal of gender in society effects video games, I'm not terribly interested in that conversation - I want to make what people like.
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    Originally Posted by KiIIerGecko View Post
    Hey Morello, I am real happy for you, and imma let you finish, but IronStylus had one of the best GD forum post of all time! OF ALL TIME!
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    Agreed
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    Originally Posted by RCIX View Post
    A side note is that Nami's voice acting sounds like a 14-16 year old which really doesn't jive with the body type IMO.
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    We're working on this now - I definitely agree.
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    Originally Posted by BelligerentGnu View Post
    I think you're maybe doing a little forest-for-treesing yourself here, Morello. True, until this point LoL hasn't had a mermaid-style champ - but it *does* have Rengar, Hecarim, Cassiopeia, Warwick, Nasus, Renekton, Udyr, Twitch and Wukong. Anthropomorphic champs aren't that unusual. More to the point, while Ironstylus may or may not have been talking about overall silouhette variation, this thread and others like it are talking about a specific kind of variation - the presence of markers of sexualization in a champion.

    There's something I think of as the Halloween phenomenon - that is, a number of champions look like they purchased a sexy-[blank] costume rather than going fully with their concept. Zyra, for example, could have looked something more like this - http://bit.ly/107EFE2 - and Elise's human form suffers the same issue, although transforming into a giant spider makes up for a lot. Nami I think is on the lower end of this scale, but isn't without troubles. Despite the fact that in some ways she's a very monstrous champ, she still has a human skin coloured torso (reinforcing the woman-in-a-mermaid-suit look), an hourglass figure, and a heavy visual emphasis on her boobs. (its less a matter of size, though thats a factor, than of framing)

    Diana proved that a female champ doesn't need to be sexual to be badass or attractive (I'll repeat what I said at the time - you guys really knocked it out of the park with her.) And as for male champs, I'd point out Singed and Swain as good examples of the kind of variety we're looking for in female champs. One is old and walks with a cane; the other is tall, skinny and lanky.

    I guess it boils down to this. A lot of the time it feels like Riot's 'default setting' for female champion design is "variant on sexy woman." All we're really seeking is a default setting of "variant on woman" - which will sometimes be sexy, and sometimes more like Singed/Swain, but will most often be more like Diana, or Leona, or Katniss from The Hunger Games, or Korra from Avatar.
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    This is the valid conversation to pursue, because it speaks to variety as opposed to the moral foundations of sexualization or offense. I think this is the variety of silhouette that IronStylus refers to when we say we need to take a look - Zyra, Elise and Syndra have more similar form language that doesn't help the character jump off the page as much (even though the characters are designed to be different) and be memorable, where I think Diana does have that language.

    You will see some old types of archetypes that we've learned from - sufficiently "derpy" (without good humor or cuteness) or unappealing archetypes (old, crippled man who is supposed to be a tactician but is just a bird-wizard) aren't something we'll go towards, but finding what replaces them is the interesting part - and importantly how to make it both cool and differentiated.
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    Originally Posted by Drozzi View Post
    Which part?
    The voice or the body?
    Just curious.
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    The voice, though the concept art is just that - concept art. It was the first drawing of her, not the final.