@Xypherous, Hashinshin lastest post on RoG has a good point

  • Gonna leave the link here, cause it expresses just about right how I feel about the item rework and mostly AD caster itemization.

    http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/h...or-design-bias
  • Well, this is loaded with a lot of assumptions and intent assignment, and I don't care for that because it's wrong, and a bad way to start a discussion. :P But, let's talk about why this feeling might exist with players and if there is indeed an item problem that needs to be fixed.

    The value that may exist here isn't "Roit loves AP bias bias bias" (that's, frankly, a silly conspiracy), but instead raises some more compelling questions;

    * Is AP itemization too good?
    * Does AP itemization have more cool stuff that non-AP would like to see?
    * Is this a problem at all - does a problem exist for AP in comparison to other roles?
    * Why does it seem biased?

    Let's go forward with these discussions, if you'd like, since we might be able to learn something here.
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    Originally Posted by PhailRaptor View Post
    I think the issue people are having is simply the volume available to AP's versus other classes. AP itemization isn't overpowered. Overpopulated though is probably a better term. Then you look at AD Casters. Well, they have BT, but they barely get to use the Lifesteal from it, if at all. They have Youmuu's, but they can't use crit chance either, and the attackspeed from the active is similarly wasted. Last Whisper, of course. Maybe the new Black Cleaver situationally, though it's better on Jarvan or Wukong than on Talon or Kha'Zix anyway. Pantheon will probably like the new Manamune (I know Urgot will love it, but when was the last time you saw him?).

    Meanwhile there are at least 6 different common AP builds, and who knows how many variations upon them to suit the enemy team and your own farming ability.
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    Wait, are we talking current items, or the stuff in Season 3?
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    Originally Posted by PhailRaptor View Post
    Reading hash, it sounded like both. He makes several references to how "AD Casters were promised items but didn't get them", which would imply S3.
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    I see - I think Black Cleaver, plus things like frozen fist, can work wonders here. Mercurial can also play in well there.

    AD Casters are a specific type of character because their auto-attacks do damage also - AP do not get any non-spell damage, so need to bank everything on this. Armor penetration stacking changes work heavily in favor of AD casters who typically get these items - and they'll now scale better into late game by allowing them to work favorably with Last Whisper.

    I don't think the goal was "make entire new lines of AD caster itemization," it was to first test the waters with this. BC is the new big-ticket item here, with several others becoming much more attractive. Maybe it's not enough, but at least there's a foundation to build on here.
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    Originally Posted by WarlordAlpha View Post
    This sounds like a fantastic excuse to ignore Hashinshin's thoughts. "I don't like the way he said these things, so I will ignore them."
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    Aren't we talking about the issue here? I think that's proof of the opposite.

    But I will ignore discussing people telling me what I intend :P It's a useless conversation and not worth having - it's like if I tell you that your motivation is to ruin the game for players...there's no way I can possibly know that.
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    Originally Posted by MrFoxx View Post
    This discussion walks the line of removing options from ap instead of adding options for the ad.

    Its great that the ap have an item to build for all situations, the problem is ad dont have that same option, it isnt even something worthy of a discussion.

    Just look at all the items, and sort them by ap, ad tank and support, and youd get a clear picture of the lack of options adc and casters have, its very simple.
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    It's a bit more nuanced than the AP itemization, I'll give you that. Things like Muramana aren't obvious, but have a lot of potential. Mecurial Scimitar is really interesting overall.

    I don't agree that there's some marginalization for ADC at all because they'e been amazing for pretty much forever. AD casters might be in a weird spot, but I explain that above.
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    Originally Posted by hashinshin View Post
    Saying its wrong doesn't make it wrong.

    Much like if you asked the developers behind street fighter 3 if perhaps Chun Li got too many options if they said "nope conspiracy" you'd smell some bull****.

    Same thing for the SC2 balance team with Terran at launch. And the magic developers with blue/white. And the WoW developers with Mages. And the GW2 team with Mesmers. And the D3 developers and Demon Hunters. SHALL I GO ON? Okay that's fine I shall. Warhammer 40k designers and Grey Knights/Space Marines. Dawn of War developers and Eldar. Natural selection 2 developers and Marines. Poxnora developers and Forglar Swamp. Bloodline champions developers and healers.

    CREDENTIAL FLAUNT, ACTIVATE.

    Every game has this. Your game has this. Just because you say it doesn't exist doesn't suddenly fullstop it. 2 years after AD caster itemization was promised, where is it? Where? Anywhere? Can I see it? What about all those new bruiser items? Anywhere? No? Just Maw? Just that ****ty item? AP itemization? Oh you mean the new incredibly meta relevant Athene's? That then got buffed to OP status 2 weeks after launch? What did I hear about Maw? Too early to buff it?

    HYPOCRISY ALERT CAPTAIN. Full denial ahead! We give itemization to every class, so long as that class is AP. Are you any better than the magic developers who have taken over 10 years to make red more than lightning bolt/scorch/FotM burn spell+1 good champion who then turn around and give blue every option feasibly available to man?

    -Is AP itemization too good? Yes. That's why you're nerfing it. That's why you'll have to nerf it again. That's why you've been nerfing it systemically every other patch for the last year (only to add new amazing OP items and have to nerf them too.)

    -Does AP itemization have things other classes want? Yes. I want to jump in to a fight with Talon then go immune for 2.5 seconds when that Incinerate is flying at me.

    -Does a problem exist with AP versus other roles? Yes. That's why you keep nerfing it. Just because AP itemization is all fine compared to each other doesn't make them fine against other items. People were still going Athene's before abyssal was nerfed, now both are nerfed. See the problem?

    -Why does it seem biased? Numbers. Look at them. Stats. The amount of items with meta relevant purposes for AP released versus other classes. Talon gets BT, which is not even itemized towards him. Tanky AP versus Tanky AD items, is there even a comparison? Tanky AP has real good actually GOOD items, tanky AD has... Maw, which is ****.

    Oh sorry I forgot to mention new black cleaver which is fantastic for sustained damage physical damage assassins...? Identity crisis much?
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    I'm going to continue talking about the issues that are possible (such as actual problems), and not discuss intent any further. You're wrong in several of those cases that bias is the problem, and frankly, it's dumb to talk about because my answer is "well we don't think that", which I can't prove and you can't disprove. It has no value and no resolution because you've just decided that's how the world works, with zero exposure to validate those claims. This is, fact, a good lesson in how to undermine a possible issue with useless discussion surrounding it - but since there is the possibility of a real gameplay issue underneath, I want to explore it.

    So, now back to actual itemization discussions.
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    Originally Posted by Blaine Tog View Post
    A few things.

    Hashinshin is a professional whiner, so his posts should be taken with a grain of salt. However...

    1) In general, AP itemization is more "fun" than AD itemization. Rylai's Crystal Scepter can give you AoE stuns while Frozen Mallet is just your autoattacks. Even if they're balanced, Rylai's is funner. Ghostblade gives you an attack speed and movement speed buff, but Zhonya's makes you untergetable for 2.5 seconds

    2) AP items also tend to have fewer wasted stats, and better amounts of the stats you want. Like, Rylai's gives health, good AP, and the slow. Frozen Mallet gives health (good), the slow (good), and.... almost no AD. Sadface. Ghostblade gives armor pen, CDR, and a good Movement Speed buff (all awesome), but also attack speed and crit chance (useless on the champs that build it).

    3) Rod of Ages gives you awesome passive lane sustain, which can really make laning against some hard champs manageable. Conversely, AD champs get every single one of their passive lane sustain items nerfed into uselessness. RoA is also just a good item so building it isn't a huge sacrifice.

    4) DFG is a "big moment," as you're fond of saying, that you can buy. AD champs have nothing like that.

    5) Most AD items that are cool have poor slot efficiency. Wriggles Lantern, Wit's End, Ghostblade, these are all fun but you should probably sell them eventually for something else, except you can't because there aren't good options that still have the stats you need.

    6) That said, AP itemization isn't OP. It's awesome. The numbers may be a little off here and there and more items would still be nice, but there are cool options and different builds for every champion. AD itemization could use some work, though. Personally, I think a lot of the S3 previews sounds like a good start for bruisers. Blade of the Ruined King is like Riven's dream item. More CDR options make me happy. Oh, and the new Black Cleaver is an AWESOME item.
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    Interesting - this has some legs. Part of this is because multiple type of character need to have AD itemization (AD caster, Brusier, and AD Carry) so I think the total items get divided. Wriggle's has good stat efficiency for fighters in the jungle, but is hyper-specialized. Additionally, the old "free gold" for high tier items was too high, making these look less attractive. We have fixed that to an extent.

    I think Mercurial Scimitar has a really fun active effect in relation to the classes who should use it. But you're right, enhancing auto-attacks is a bit more vanilla. Maybe that's happened because we think utility should go more on AP, Tanks and Support than it should bruisers, AD Casters and carries. That would explain the differential, and for that fact I think is OK.

    Items should slightly vary but enhance existing play-patterns, so obviously someone who thinks AP casters are fun should play those :P But AD players need to make sure they have fun options that are different and tailored to the actions they enjoy. I think a good example of success here is where we've done this on the new support items.
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    Originally Posted by IrrationalNoob View Post
    Should it not be an option to spec for utility (in terms of items) rather then hard regulate it to certain classes?

    Also where does this leave AD Tanks (like renekton) in terms of how they work with items with that design philosophy?
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    Actually, you don't want utility across all characters to be equal - speccing stats into certain utility effects makes it more efficient for classes that the effect is, essentially, designed to work for.

    That's what we use currently, though there are both pros and cons to that.
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    Originally Posted by bierfaust View Post
    Actually most people do. Currently there are very few APs that have no hard CC, where as alot of ADs don't. Like Zed.

    This is why you will see alot of champs underplayed, because why take Zed when you can take Pantheon who has a stun and even higher damage, and who isn't incredibly situational in how they approach fights to do said damage.

    EDIT: In terms of utility across the board, you already partially did that with flash. 99% of people take flash meaning they now all have an escape or a gap close.

    Also, the perfect example of a nearly completely balanced AD caster is Riven. She has minor utility in that she has a shield that scales off AD. Why not implement more ideas like this.
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    Sorry, "you" was the wrong pronoun - I meant us as developers are trying to avoid that currently.

    That has advantages - you don't have to worry about balancing for every edge case and can make more effects that are cool because they're gated (see Ravenous Hydra's "melee only" clause) but the disadvantage as you cannot combine as many elements together effectively - and trying to break the game and find crazy things is fun. Right now, we feel the former outweighs the latter, but we may not have the tuning exactly right on where to do it, admittedly.