Just curious if there's ever been a champion concept that you've really liked but had it turned down and told to redo it.
Followup question: If yes does the remade concept end up looking drastically different than the original one or does it usually end up with just few tweaks but essentially the same?
Followup to followup question: Happen with any champs in the current roster? If so who?
Just curious if there's ever been a champion concept that you've really liked but had it turned down and told to redo it.
Followup question: If yes does the remade concept end up looking drastically different than the original one or does it usually end up with just few tweaks but essentially the same?
Followup to followup question: Happen with any champs in the current roster? If so who?
All the time. The number of champions I've designed that aren't in the game that I have concepts sitting around for outnumber those that did make it into the game. Not to mention all the concept work and iteration that lead up to the final design which may diverge heavily from the original sketched. Graves for example started by looking a lot like Gene from Outlaw Star actually. I know, odd angle to come at it from, but hey, that's where it started.
I've shown in cases like Diana that the concept can diverge pretty heavilly, like this:
In the case of Diana, she very much started as just sort of lame chick-with-big-sword, not much else. It wasn't until I shopped the idea around a lot, and got a lot of feedback, from Morello especially, that I figured out a decent hook for her. I also took cues from a lot of different influences such as the anime Claymore to find an unconventional archetype to latch onto.
Many times concepts start out differently and end up completely tangential. An upcoming champion I worked on was initially ideated to be melee, but halfway through the process we decided to make the character ranged. That and a whole other host of variables can change the outcome of a concept.
Sometimes those variables end up in making the concept not viable. Varrus was a good case of this. I started working on him way back in the day when we had this idea for a "Demonic Hunter" of sorts. We ended up scrapping the idea for the demonic thing and went with "corrupted". I actually stopped working on it at that point and another artist picked it up. He ended up taking it in a different direction which I think worked.
I doubt I'll ever get to show all the stuff I've done that hasn't made it into the game, champions and skins alike, because who knows, they might end up getting used in some way later on.
It can be a bummer when something gets scrapped (see Omen) but usually it's for a good reason. (see Omen) I of course want things that I work on make it into the game, but when something isn't working for one reason or another it's often beyond my control.
But that's the nature of development. Luckily I think that what I've done for characters that did make it in ended up being of good quality because of how much thought multiple people put into it during each character's creation. Sometimes it's a one shot one kill, other times it's a lot of iteration and change. I've definitely seen both sides of it, as pretty much everyone at Riot has =)
What kind of person turns down original parrot work....hmm....HMMM? ):
Producers. Evil, evil producers =)
Just kidding! Most often it's a consensus that agrees that.. "Eh, this character is just sort of 'meh'." from all standpoints, not on art alone. Awesome art never saves a crummy character design, just like good rendering can't save a crummy drawing.
What kind of person turns down original parrot work....hmm....HMMM? ):
Producers. Evil, evil producers =)
Just kidding! Most often it's a consensus that agrees that.. "Eh, this character is just sort of 'meh'." from all standpoints, not on art alone. Awesome art never saves a crummy character design, just like good rendering can't save a crummy drawing.
IronStylus...That's actually really freakin' good for concept art. How can they tell when they want something...else?
That's sorta confusing so let me rephrase that....How do they know what they're looking for because that actually seems really good/ready to animate to me.
Yeah, the original concept of Diana was neat, but was it anything special? Would that design stand the test of time? Does it tell a story? I don't think so. I learned a lot during that process, especially since that even if it's a cool piece of art, it doesn't mean that will make up for lack of story.
I think Diana tells a story in her final concept. I think the original was just that, 'good', not great, and definitely not as memorable as she came out in the end.
All the time. The number of champions I've designed that aren't in the game that I have concepts sitting around for outnumber those that did make it into the game. Not to mention all the concept work and iteration that lead up to the final design which may diverge heavily from the original sketched. Graves for example started by looking a lot like Gene from Outlaw Star actually. I know, odd angle to come at it from, but hey, that's where it started.
I've shown in cases like Diana that the concept can diverge pretty heavilly, like this:
In the case of Diana, she very much started as just sort of lame chick-with-big-sword, not much else. It wasn't until I shopped the idea around a lot, and got a lot of feedback, from Morello especially, that I figured out a decent hook for her. I also took cues from a lot of different influences such as the anime Claymore to find an unconventional archetype to latch onto.
Many times concepts start out differently and end up completely tangential. An upcoming champion I worked on was initially ideated to be melee, but halfway through the process we decided to make the character ranged. That and a whole other host of variables can change the outcome of a concept.
Sometimes those variables end up in making the concept not viable. Varrus was a good case of this. I started working on him way back in the day when we had this idea for a "Demonic Hunter" of sorts. We ended up scrapping the idea for the demonic thing and went with "corrupted". I actually stopped working on it at that point and another artist picked it up. He ended up taking it in a different direction which I think worked.
I doubt I'll ever get to show all the stuff I've done that hasn't made it into the game, champions and skins alike, because who knows, they might end up getting used in some way later on.
It can be a bummer when something gets scrapped (see Omen) but usually it's for a good reason. (see Omen) I of course want things that I work on make it into the game, but when something isn't working for one reason or another it's often beyond my control.
But that's the nature of development. Luckily I think that what I've done for characters that did make it in ended up being of good quality because of how much thought multiple people put into it during each character's creation. Sometimes it's a one shot one kill, other times it's a lot of iteration and change. I've definitely seen both sides of it, as pretty much everyone at Riot has =)
Diana's one of the best examples of this, agreed The initial idea had a lot of merit, but it lacked something special or iconic at first - "moon knight that is anti-Leona" is one good component, but the heritic and detachment angles added a ton of personality and archetype-recognition to the character that made it come to life. The concept art was then updated to incorporate the new elements - essentially, the character evolved.
This happens on everything! From concept art, to kit prototypes, to bios, ideas aren't sacred, and nothing is ever good on the first shot.
Yeah, the original concept of Diana was neat, but was it anything special? Would that design stand the test of time? Does it tell a story? I don't think so. I learned a lot during that process, especially since that even if it's a cool piece of art, it doesn't mean that will make up for lack of story.
I think Diana tells a story in her final concept. I think the original was just that, 'good', not great, and definitely not as memorable as she came out in the end.
Woot, thanks IronStylus, first time quoted by a red. =D
Anyways while I got you...Just curious, do you know the spells/abilities before you design a champion?
(Just trying to get an idea of just how restricted the conditions you are working under are so I can gain an even further appreciation for the work you do)
We're never restricted, at all. We only have guidelines if there happens to be a particular note we're trying to hit, or an archetype we're trying to nail. Draven, we knew he was going to do crazy stuff with axes, but no one had any idea how crazy and over the top he'd be. That personality was injected as the character evolved.
There may be story points we're trying to his, abilities we're trying to illustrate, or themes we're trying to emphasize, but we're not restricted in any significant way.
There's a particular character I'm helping with that indeed pretty much has most of the abilities spelled out, there's a prototype, but it could certainly change. Other champions I've worked on, like Diana, most of those spells and abilities were constructed long after her art had an established direction. In that way each discipline adapts to the other. Volty knew he had to do work with the moon motif and a giant sword. He made do =)
Diana's one of the best examples of this, agreed The initial idea had a lot of merit, but it lacked something special or iconic at first - "moon knight that is anti-Leona" is one good component, but the heritic and detachment angles added a ton of personality and archetype-recognition to the character that made it come to life. The concept art was then updated to incorporate the new elements - essentially, the character evolved.
This happens on everything! From concept art, to kit prototypes, to bios, ideas aren't sacred, and nothing is ever good on the first shot.
Diana was an excellent learning experience and I think helped teach us all how collaboration helps so very much in finding the "secret sauce" =)
I really want to see some scrapped ideas and skins. Like the original Graves concept (although I suppose that original concept could be rehashed into a new Ezreal-like guy)!
What constitutes a "good idea"? I mean, how do you know if the community is going to like it? I'm sure you have people who research that stuff, but some champions that make it through are not popular designs (e.g. people mostly love Karma's design, but mostly hate Syndra's design. Both are pretty subpar at their respective roles, so popularity isn't a factor here.).
Also, random question, is Karma getting a model remake? Please tell me she keeps her awesomely impractical dress.
I'll see what I can throw up, be warned, it's really really bad =/
I'm not sure what constitues a good idea. It's not really an equation. It's more of a feeling when all the pieces put together. We sort of measure it simply in fun and if the champion feels like a character that tells a story, that stands out from other characters in similar media.
Specifically in how I work, how I judge whether the community or the player is going to like it is by doing a lot of what I do now, solicit feedback and learn from the input I recieve. I judge my work mainly by, in the words of Morello, does it sell the fantasy? Again, in the case of Diana, we're trying to sell emotionally detached killer heretic who is imbued with the celestial might of the moon. I think in the visuals we communicated that in the sharp crescents designed into her. We made her gameplay feel self-immolating and vicious, we made her story one of tragedy. I think so long as we hit on those points and reflected the fantasy in all three areas, we're going to hit the right note.
In terms of Syndra, I think that's more of an opportunity thing, something again, that we've learned from. We made a cool evil floating lady with a head dress and giant black... spheres. It ended up as more of a costume change in it's overall design rather than an extremely unique character. Sometimes that happens. I think all we do is learn from that and make sure we take bigger leaps in experimentation rather than playing it conservative with "hot chick in tight costume" thing.
Karma will get a visual rework, but it's going to be a but different. I can't elaborate on that but it will be something I think will be very welcome. I've worked on her visual rework in a bunch of capacities.
@Ironstylus: has anyone ever rejected your concept art ideas and told you to redo em?
Followup question: If yes does the remade concept end up looking drastically different than the original one or does it usually end up with just few tweaks but essentially the same?
Followup to followup question: Happen with any champs in the current roster? If so who?
Followup question: If yes does the remade concept end up looking drastically different than the original one or does it usually end up with just few tweaks but essentially the same?
Followup to followup question: Happen with any champs in the current roster? If so who?
I've shown in cases like Diana that the concept can diverge pretty heavilly, like this:
http://ironstylus.blogspot.com/2012/...oon-rises.html
In the case of Diana, she very much started as just sort of lame chick-with-big-sword, not much else. It wasn't until I shopped the idea around a lot, and got a lot of feedback, from Morello especially, that I figured out a decent hook for her. I also took cues from a lot of different influences such as the anime Claymore to find an unconventional archetype to latch onto.
Many times concepts start out differently and end up completely tangential. An upcoming champion I worked on was initially ideated to be melee, but halfway through the process we decided to make the character ranged. That and a whole other host of variables can change the outcome of a concept.
Sometimes those variables end up in making the concept not viable. Varrus was a good case of this. I started working on him way back in the day when we had this idea for a "Demonic Hunter" of sorts. We ended up scrapping the idea for the demonic thing and went with "corrupted". I actually stopped working on it at that point and another artist picked it up. He ended up taking it in a different direction which I think worked.
I doubt I'll ever get to show all the stuff I've done that hasn't made it into the game, champions and skins alike, because who knows, they might end up getting used in some way later on.
It can be a bummer when something gets scrapped (see Omen) but usually it's for a good reason. (see Omen) I of course want things that I work on make it into the game, but when something isn't working for one reason or another it's often beyond my control.
But that's the nature of development. Luckily I think that what I've done for characters that did make it in ended up being of good quality because of how much thought multiple people put into it during each character's creation. Sometimes it's a one shot one kill, other times it's a lot of iteration and change. I've definitely seen both sides of it, as pretty much everyone at Riot has =)
Just kidding! Most often it's a consensus that agrees that.. "Eh, this character is just sort of 'meh'." from all standpoints, not on art alone. Awesome art never saves a crummy character design, just like good rendering can't save a crummy drawing.
Just kidding! Most often it's a consensus that agrees that.. "Eh, this character is just sort of 'meh'." from all standpoints, not on art alone. Awesome art never saves a crummy character design, just like good rendering can't save a crummy drawing.
That's sorta confusing so let me rephrase that....How do they know what they're looking for because that actually seems really good/ready to animate to me.
I think Diana tells a story in her final concept. I think the original was just that, 'good', not great, and definitely not as memorable as she came out in the end.
I've shown in cases like Diana that the concept can diverge pretty heavilly, like this:
http://ironstylus.blogspot.com/2012/...oon-rises.html
In the case of Diana, she very much started as just sort of lame chick-with-big-sword, not much else. It wasn't until I shopped the idea around a lot, and got a lot of feedback, from Morello especially, that I figured out a decent hook for her. I also took cues from a lot of different influences such as the anime Claymore to find an unconventional archetype to latch onto.
Many times concepts start out differently and end up completely tangential. An upcoming champion I worked on was initially ideated to be melee, but halfway through the process we decided to make the character ranged. That and a whole other host of variables can change the outcome of a concept.
Sometimes those variables end up in making the concept not viable. Varrus was a good case of this. I started working on him way back in the day when we had this idea for a "Demonic Hunter" of sorts. We ended up scrapping the idea for the demonic thing and went with "corrupted". I actually stopped working on it at that point and another artist picked it up. He ended up taking it in a different direction which I think worked.
I doubt I'll ever get to show all the stuff I've done that hasn't made it into the game, champions and skins alike, because who knows, they might end up getting used in some way later on.
It can be a bummer when something gets scrapped (see Omen) but usually it's for a good reason. (see Omen) I of course want things that I work on make it into the game, but when something isn't working for one reason or another it's often beyond my control.
But that's the nature of development. Luckily I think that what I've done for characters that did make it in ended up being of good quality because of how much thought multiple people put into it during each character's creation. Sometimes it's a one shot one kill, other times it's a lot of iteration and change. I've definitely seen both sides of it, as pretty much everyone at Riot has =)
This happens on everything! From concept art, to kit prototypes, to bios, ideas aren't sacred, and nothing is ever good on the first shot.
I think Diana tells a story in her final concept. I think the original was just that, 'good', not great, and definitely not as memorable as she came out in the end.
Anyways while I got you...Just curious, do you know the spells/abilities before you design a champion?
(Just trying to get an idea of just how restricted the conditions you are working under are so I can gain an even further appreciation for the work you do)
There may be story points we're trying to his, abilities we're trying to illustrate, or themes we're trying to emphasize, but we're not restricted in any significant way.
There's a particular character I'm helping with that indeed pretty much has most of the abilities spelled out, there's a prototype, but it could certainly change. Other champions I've worked on, like Diana, most of those spells and abilities were constructed long after her art had an established direction. In that way each discipline adapts to the other. Volty knew he had to do work with the moon motif and a giant sword. He made do =)
This happens on everything! From concept art, to kit prototypes, to bios, ideas aren't sacred, and nothing is ever good on the first shot.
What constitutes a "good idea"? I mean, how do you know if the community is going to like it? I'm sure you have people who research that stuff, but some champions that make it through are not popular designs (e.g. people mostly love Karma's design, but mostly hate Syndra's design. Both are pretty subpar at their respective roles, so popularity isn't a factor here.).
Also, random question, is Karma getting a model remake? Please tell me she keeps her awesomely impractical dress.
I'm not sure what constitues a good idea. It's not really an equation. It's more of a feeling when all the pieces put together. We sort of measure it simply in fun and if the champion feels like a character that tells a story, that stands out from other characters in similar media.
Specifically in how I work, how I judge whether the community or the player is going to like it is by doing a lot of what I do now, solicit feedback and learn from the input I recieve. I judge my work mainly by, in the words of Morello, does it sell the fantasy? Again, in the case of Diana, we're trying to sell emotionally detached killer heretic who is imbued with the celestial might of the moon. I think in the visuals we communicated that in the sharp crescents designed into her. We made her gameplay feel self-immolating and vicious, we made her story one of tragedy. I think so long as we hit on those points and reflected the fantasy in all three areas, we're going to hit the right note.
In terms of Syndra, I think that's more of an opportunity thing, something again, that we've learned from. We made a cool evil floating lady with a head dress and giant black... spheres. It ended up as more of a costume change in it's overall design rather than an extremely unique character. Sometimes that happens. I think all we do is learn from that and make sure we take bigger leaps in experimentation rather than playing it conservative with "hot chick in tight costume" thing.
Karma will get a visual rework, but it's going to be a but different. I can't elaborate on that but it will be something I think will be very welcome. I've worked on her visual rework in a bunch of capacities.