Edit: Lock the thread please, no point in talking about this issue any longer. I see now that there is no point in arguing over tribunal policies.
Hello Riot, I just want to know what is going on. How is it fair to give me a warning and a suspension in like 5 days. My email correspondence shows a warning issued 11/15/2012/ and then a 2-3 day suspension in a very short time? I dont get it
Edit: I'm not here to complain etc etc etc... I just want to know what is going on. I also DO NOT have a problem reforming in any way. I just dont think its fair to get a warning and a few days ban in the same week, and I want to sort out a few things in the warning that was issued to me as I do not believe I should have gotten it in the first place. I have put the reform card up for it. I want a civil discussion here about this warning reform card. I can see why I got the other case suspension but this one is quite dodgy.
Also, some of these games on this case ( the one causing the warning) reports are highly questionable. Also I was getting trolled by janna in one of them.... and of course she exaggerated the case in her report making me look bad.
Notice the vernacular and verbal abuse of ashe and mundo in game 1. Allow me to ask this...... so no matter how badly your allies are harassing you, you cannot say anything back or you get suspended? Is that correct? Even if you are defending yourself?
In game 2.... I remember that, and actually lux was the mid that trolled us, but unfortunately when I told the enemy to report her, she accidentally reported me. If you don't believe me, read the chat in game 2. You will see the team tells the enemy team to report lux as well.
In game 3... the tribunal will only show you the chat and not the game itself. Janna purposefully trolled our team just to spite us and fed on purpose/ would leave enemies with like 5 health left just to spite us. If you read chat, janna exaggerates the issue like i was verbally abusing her the whole game when in fact I said 1 thing when I had enough of her trolling.
In game 4...I literally did nothing wrong. Read the chat... I mean I have no idea what i did wrong. It was a normal game, and I believe my ally might have reported me on accident.
In game 5... I have no idea what I did wrong either.
Hello Riot, I just want to know what is going on. How is it fair to give me a warning and a suspension in like 5 days. My email correspondence shows a warning issued 11/15/2012/ and then a 2-3 day suspension in a very short time? I dont get it
Edit: I'm not here to complain etc etc etc... I just want to know what is going on. I also DO NOT have a problem reforming in any way. I just dont think its fair to get a warning and a few days ban in the same week, and I want to sort out a few things in the warning that was issued to me as I do not believe I should have gotten it in the first place. I have put the reform card up for it. I want a civil discussion here about this warning reform card. I can see why I got the other case suspension but this one is quite dodgy.
Also, some of these games on this case ( the one causing the warning) reports are highly questionable. Also I was getting trolled by janna in one of them.... and of course she exaggerated the case in her report making me look bad.
Notice the vernacular and verbal abuse of ashe and mundo in game 1. Allow me to ask this...... so no matter how badly your allies are harassing you, you cannot say anything back or you get suspended? Is that correct? Even if you are defending yourself?
In game 2.... I remember that, and actually lux was the mid that trolled us, but unfortunately when I told the enemy to report her, she accidentally reported me. If you don't believe me, read the chat in game 2. You will see the team tells the enemy team to report lux as well.
In game 3... the tribunal will only show you the chat and not the game itself. Janna purposefully trolled our team just to spite us and fed on purpose/ would leave enemies with like 5 health left just to spite us. If you read chat, janna exaggerates the issue like i was verbally abusing her the whole game when in fact I said 1 thing when I had enough of her trolling.
In game 4...I literally did nothing wrong. Read the chat... I mean I have no idea what i did wrong. It was a normal game, and I believe my ally might have reported me on accident.
In game 5... I have no idea what I did wrong either.
The way this works is that when you get a warning, you are "on watch" by the tribunal for a while. If you get a lot of reports shortly thereafter, you will get evaluated by your peers on the tribunal again. If the games involved look bad enough, they may vote to punish you, and you will get a time ban.
Warnings mean a warning. This is kinda like if a cop pulls you over for going 90 in a 55 and because he didn't have radar on says to you, "I'm pretty sure you were going way over the speed limit, but I didn't have radar on and I'm going to cut you a break. Slow it down, OK?"
And then he pulls you over again in 3 miles because you got back on the freeway and kept going 90, but this time he clocked you on radar. The first warning was a gift, a second chance. You gotta heed warnings. They are there to help you avoid being in a situation where there WILL be negative consequences.
We should've gotten you the warning before the ban. Sorry about that. But at some level, if the behavior is bad enough that you accelerate through the process that fast, you kinda deserve the ban anyway. It takes a significant amount of bad behavior to get the warning, and then AGAIN end up in the tribunal before you received the warning. In an ideal world, you'd get this immediately, and we will work on this. But to be clear, you had to be receiving a lot of reports in a short space of time to jump this.
So, I feel OK given that you admit that your suspension card was justified... I think this is all irrelevant based on that because honestly, if you are ever highly toxic you SHOULD get a suspension at some level... but I am still going to look at your warning card...
I feel like you did deserve a warning. Some games had no basis for a warning, but you do show a consistent trend of getting inflamed at small issues, and generally increasing the toxicity of games you are in. For example:
(in response to a slightly sarcastic but not inflamatory remark from Mundo) "I told you to b, you dumbass"
Game 3 was pretty distinct (I did not add caps):
You: "JANNA, DONT"
Janna: "Dude, calm down and shut up"
You: "DUDE, NO"
Janna: "seriously, act like a kid again and I'll quit"
(1:45 later)
Janna to all: gg
You: "Janna, f*ck you, you b*tch"
I mean, I agree there's REASONS that caused you to get angry, but this is your mistake. There are lots of things that make us angry, but in most of these cases, we should keep a cool head and not retaliate. For example, I get angry when people make a slow left turn and miss the light, but I don't then yell at them outside my window, or slam my horn for 10 seconds at them, because that would make me a jerk, and would not help anything.
Part of getting along in this game is keeping a cool head and not getting inflamed at every situation. It's a competitive game. People will make mistakes. There will be reasons to be angry. Don't get angry. Save anger for when someone tries to hack your email, or someone tries to scam your elderly relative, or when a teacher at school publicly mocks your 7 year old kid, or other valid situations in which one might get angry.
I think you should spend less time blaming the system and more time improving your behavior. Your fellow players thought your conduct was unacceptable. At some level, that's all that matters.
Yeah, Riot really needs to fix the way Tribunal is handled. I got my first warning email AFTER I got a suspension email, for the same Tribunal case.
I understand that there's this whole toxic player idea, but that's not how to handle it. Neither is putting up cases that have people being reported by 1 person.
Zileas, since you're in here. Can you explain to me why either of these two situations can occur? The first one specifically goes completely counter to what you just said. As I assume you don't issue suspensions before warnings, I feel it safe to assume the warning just came in late. But using the cop analogy, it would be like the cop pulling me over, telling me it seemed like I was speeding... getting in his car, letting me drive off, then pulling me over and ticketing me before I have the chance to speed.
It's an edge case, I'll mention it again. Basically, the Tribunal does a certain amount of batch processing, so there are situations in which you can get a warning, continue behaving VERY badly, and batch another case before you receive it. We really need to notify you more comprehensively, I'll mention it.
On watch? I got almost no time to even know i was "on watch"? Do you at least know what I am saying? The whole point of a warning is to allow the other person to reform. You could have given me a warning for all of the cases and I think that would have been more fair. If the legal justice system worked the same way the tribunal did, we would be having many more poeple go to jail than necessary. I literally had no time. Also you havent told me how I was in the wrong in games 4 and 5. I thought you could view all 5 games from the link.
I am just trying to understand the situation i do not mean to be disrespectful and thank you for the quick reply.
Okay a few comments on that:
1) Yeah, you should receive a warning prior to a suspension. I'll ask the PB&J team about this. I agree, you should get a warning quickly and urgently when it is issued. It's something we should ensure is solved effectively.
2) However, if your second set of games was that bad, a few day ban is appropriate on a practical level. The warning is a tool we use to accelerate learning, but honestly, if you are getting banned that quickly after, you were probably on the upper end of RATE of reports, and I feel like a temp ban is appropriate then.
3) RE games 4/5 -- doesn't matter. Everyone gets random reports that don't make sense. You have to get more reports than everyone else to end up in the tribunal, and those "more reports" are the ones with a basis of bad behavior. My accounts get about one report per 20 games. If I was a flaming jerk, I'd end up in the tribunal, with several of my games looking totally fine, no problem . Wouldn't change the appropriateness of the verdict.
and that would be a illegal stop. Dont spread this and make ppl think cops can stop people as they please.
Cops have training to visually spot speed. This is less accurate than radar, but they can certainly tell the difference between 90 mph and 55 mph, and at a certain point, they are confident enough of a violation that they do have a legal justification to stop you ;p They'd be challenged to justify a ticket AT 90 (as opposed to some much lower number), but that's a different standard than being confident you were probably violating the speed limit statutes.
I spoke with Professor Doctor Lyte about this. Apparently, this player WOULD have gotten a warning popup, but probably missed it, as a good # of players sortof filter these out (which ultimately is our issue, not theirs). He also would've gotten an email. We recognize that people often don't check their registration email. So, it's very possible to get in this situation if you miss both.
We are going to look into better ways to reliably message warnings in the future and ensure that players do get them, and that we can confirm they got them.
That being said, we are still OK with this temp ban, given the situation of rapid rate of report accrual.
You're pretty pathetic Zileas. In fact. Your whole company is just riddled with incompetence. This WHOLE CASE could have been avoided with simple use of the MATURE CHAT FILTER. Why is it even in the game if you can still get banned for cussing. Stupid mentality.
We can filter bad words in an automated fashion, but it is a bit harder to automatically filter bad attitudes, which is why we have the tribunal.
Bad language is not nearly as bad as bad attitudes... For example, if you say "**** yeah" when your graves gets a quadra kill, it's very unlikely you will negatively affect someone's play experience.
Suggestion: On the popup, require an e-signature (just a text box) from the player, and wait 10 seconds or so before they can sign and accept. Ensures they read it, gives you a data point to log for confirmation.
Yeah, we were thinking something along those lines could be good. Not sure the exact incarnation we will go with, or what the priority is.
By you responding to this thread you're participating in creating a negative environment. Why don't you evict yourself from this conversation? Also since when are you a "stakeholder" in this company?
But as players we don't have the power that's up to Riot. You only think you have power when reading tribunal cases but supposedly Riot makes the last decision.
Edit: Oralz name is too offensive for me, I'm out. PEACE!
Bro -- do yourself a favor, and stop the baiting.
We banned you about 1.5 weeks ago for 2 weeks because you are one of the most toxic players in the game. You obviously have not learned. If you want to stick with the trolling and being completely disingenuous, we can take it to assume you are not going to improve your behavior, and upgrade to perm. Let us know.
Ok, how did I get a warning and a Suspension in a 1 week period?
Hello Riot, I just want to know what is going on. How is it fair to give me a warning and a suspension in like 5 days. My email correspondence shows a warning issued 11/15/2012/ and then a 2-3 day suspension in a very short time? I dont get it
Edit: I'm not here to complain etc etc etc... I just want to know what is going on. I also DO NOT have a problem reforming in any way. I just dont think its fair to get a warning and a few days ban in the same week, and I want to sort out a few things in the warning that was issued to me as I do not believe I should have gotten it in the first place. I have put the reform card up for it. I want a civil discussion here about this warning reform card. I can see why I got the other case suspension but this one is quite dodgy.
Also, some of these games on this case ( the one causing the warning) reports are highly questionable. Also I was getting trolled by janna in one of them.... and of course she exaggerated the case in her report making me look bad.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribun.../5937259/#nogo
Notice the vernacular and verbal abuse of ashe and mundo in game 1. Allow me to ask this...... so no matter how badly your allies are harassing you, you cannot say anything back or you get suspended? Is that correct? Even if you are defending yourself?
In game 2.... I remember that, and actually lux was the mid that trolled us, but unfortunately when I told the enemy to report her, she accidentally reported me. If you don't believe me, read the chat in game 2. You will see the team tells the enemy team to report lux as well.
In game 3... the tribunal will only show you the chat and not the game itself. Janna purposefully trolled our team just to spite us and fed on purpose/ would leave enemies with like 5 health left just to spite us. If you read chat, janna exaggerates the issue like i was verbally abusing her the whole game when in fact I said 1 thing when I had enough of her trolling.
In game 4...I literally did nothing wrong. Read the chat... I mean I have no idea what i did wrong. It was a normal game, and I believe my ally might have reported me on accident.
In game 5... I have no idea what I did wrong either.
Edit: I'm not here to complain etc etc etc... I just want to know what is going on. I also DO NOT have a problem reforming in any way. I just dont think its fair to get a warning and a few days ban in the same week, and I want to sort out a few things in the warning that was issued to me as I do not believe I should have gotten it in the first place. I have put the reform card up for it. I want a civil discussion here about this warning reform card. I can see why I got the other case suspension but this one is quite dodgy.
Also, some of these games on this case ( the one causing the warning) reports are highly questionable. Also I was getting trolled by janna in one of them.... and of course she exaggerated the case in her report making me look bad.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/tribun.../5937259/#nogo
Notice the vernacular and verbal abuse of ashe and mundo in game 1. Allow me to ask this...... so no matter how badly your allies are harassing you, you cannot say anything back or you get suspended? Is that correct? Even if you are defending yourself?
In game 2.... I remember that, and actually lux was the mid that trolled us, but unfortunately when I told the enemy to report her, she accidentally reported me. If you don't believe me, read the chat in game 2. You will see the team tells the enemy team to report lux as well.
In game 3... the tribunal will only show you the chat and not the game itself. Janna purposefully trolled our team just to spite us and fed on purpose/ would leave enemies with like 5 health left just to spite us. If you read chat, janna exaggerates the issue like i was verbally abusing her the whole game when in fact I said 1 thing when I had enough of her trolling.
In game 4...I literally did nothing wrong. Read the chat... I mean I have no idea what i did wrong. It was a normal game, and I believe my ally might have reported me on accident.
In game 5... I have no idea what I did wrong either.
The way this works is that when you get a warning, you are "on watch" by the tribunal for a while. If you get a lot of reports shortly thereafter, you will get evaluated by your peers on the tribunal again. If the games involved look bad enough, they may vote to punish you, and you will get a time ban.
Warnings mean a warning. This is kinda like if a cop pulls you over for going 90 in a 55 and because he didn't have radar on says to you, "I'm pretty sure you were going way over the speed limit, but I didn't have radar on and I'm going to cut you a break. Slow it down, OK?"
And then he pulls you over again in 3 miles because you got back on the freeway and kept going 90, but this time he clocked you on radar. The first warning was a gift, a second chance. You gotta heed warnings. They are there to help you avoid being in a situation where there WILL be negative consequences.
We should've gotten you the warning before the ban. Sorry about that. But at some level, if the behavior is bad enough that you accelerate through the process that fast, you kinda deserve the ban anyway. It takes a significant amount of bad behavior to get the warning, and then AGAIN end up in the tribunal before you received the warning. In an ideal world, you'd get this immediately, and we will work on this. But to be clear, you had to be receiving a lot of reports in a short space of time to jump this.
So, I feel OK given that you admit that your suspension card was justified... I think this is all irrelevant based on that because honestly, if you are ever highly toxic you SHOULD get a suspension at some level... but I am still going to look at your warning card...
I feel like you did deserve a warning. Some games had no basis for a warning, but you do show a consistent trend of getting inflamed at small issues, and generally increasing the toxicity of games you are in. For example:
(in response to a slightly sarcastic but not inflamatory remark from Mundo) "I told you to b, you dumbass"
Game 3 was pretty distinct (I did not add caps):
You: "JANNA, DONT"
Janna: "Dude, calm down and shut up"
You: "DUDE, NO"
Janna: "seriously, act like a kid again and I'll quit"
(1:45 later)
Janna to all: gg
You: "Janna, f*ck you, you b*tch"
I mean, I agree there's REASONS that caused you to get angry, but this is your mistake. There are lots of things that make us angry, but in most of these cases, we should keep a cool head and not retaliate. For example, I get angry when people make a slow left turn and miss the light, but I don't then yell at them outside my window, or slam my horn for 10 seconds at them, because that would make me a jerk, and would not help anything.
Part of getting along in this game is keeping a cool head and not getting inflamed at every situation. It's a competitive game. People will make mistakes. There will be reasons to be angry. Don't get angry. Save anger for when someone tries to hack your email, or someone tries to scam your elderly relative, or when a teacher at school publicly mocks your 7 year old kid, or other valid situations in which one might get angry.
I think you should spend less time blaming the system and more time improving your behavior. Your fellow players thought your conduct was unacceptable. At some level, that's all that matters.
I understand that there's this whole toxic player idea, but that's not how to handle it. Neither is putting up cases that have people being reported by 1 person.
Zileas, since you're in here. Can you explain to me why either of these two situations can occur? The first one specifically goes completely counter to what you just said. As I assume you don't issue suspensions before warnings, I feel it safe to assume the warning just came in late. But using the cop analogy, it would be like the cop pulling me over, telling me it seemed like I was speeding... getting in his car, letting me drive off, then pulling me over and ticketing me before I have the chance to speed.
I am just trying to understand the situation i do not mean to be disrespectful and thank you for the quick reply.
1) Yeah, you should receive a warning prior to a suspension. I'll ask the PB&J team about this. I agree, you should get a warning quickly and urgently when it is issued. It's something we should ensure is solved effectively.
2) However, if your second set of games was that bad, a few day ban is appropriate on a practical level. The warning is a tool we use to accelerate learning, but honestly, if you are getting banned that quickly after, you were probably on the upper end of RATE of reports, and I feel like a temp ban is appropriate then.
3) RE games 4/5 -- doesn't matter. Everyone gets random reports that don't make sense. You have to get more reports than everyone else to end up in the tribunal, and those "more reports" are the ones with a basis of bad behavior. My accounts get about one report per 20 games. If I was a flaming jerk, I'd end up in the tribunal, with several of my games looking totally fine, no problem . Wouldn't change the appropriateness of the verdict.
- zileas
- Zileas
I spoke with Professor Doctor Lyte about this. Apparently, this player WOULD have gotten a warning popup, but probably missed it, as a good # of players sortof filter these out (which ultimately is our issue, not theirs). He also would've gotten an email. We recognize that people often don't check their registration email. So, it's very possible to get in this situation if you miss both.
We are going to look into better ways to reliably message warnings in the future and ensure that players do get them, and that we can confirm they got them.
That being said, we are still OK with this temp ban, given the situation of rapid rate of report accrual.
- Zileas
Bad language is not nearly as bad as bad attitudes... For example, if you say "**** yeah" when your graves gets a quadra kill, it's very unlikely you will negatively affect someone's play experience.
But as players we don't have the power that's up to Riot. You only think you have power when reading tribunal cases but supposedly Riot makes the last decision.
Edit: Oralz name is too offensive for me, I'm out. PEACE!
We banned you about 1.5 weeks ago for 2 weeks because you are one of the most toxic players in the game. You obviously have not learned. If you want to stick with the trolling and being completely disingenuous, we can take it to assume you are not going to improve your behavior, and upgrade to perm. Let us know.