Karthus ult, does damage to every enemy champion, Jayce ult, does 0 damage to anyone, only changes his weapon stance. Balance?
Didn't I already explain that champion kits aren't balanced for all ults to be of equal power, or all passives to be of equal power, but for the entire champion kit and ratios and base stats and leveling stats to be balanced together as a complete package.
But these are two champions who are analogues of each other, fill the same role, in the same lane, and even have similar-ish moves--an AA resetter, AOE dmg, utility move, execute ult. Comparing them is relevant. Comparing jayce's non-ult and Karthus's ult is irrelevant
You forgot to include Katarina, she also spins. And don't forget to include Draven, he has a move speed increase, and so does Garen. The 2 champs are different and also have a different play feel. You equally play against them differently. I still maintain that it is a useless exercise to compare the power of ults of 2 different champions. If you want to compare the power of champions, you have to look at the entire kit to be fair. Utility, scaling, base stats, cooldowns, mana costs, damage, damage types, movespeed, etc.
Explain this then (I just recorded this watching a platinum ranked game): Darius and Xin Zhao both level 6, both have a doran's blade and boots of speed. Darius has 1082/1130 health, 97 AD, 0.8 AS, 365 move, 56 Armor, and 44 MR
Xin has 1080/1113 health, 103 AD, 0.7 AS, 370 move, 54 Armor, and 46 MR
They both have their ultimates, ignites, yet both of their flashes are down. They both have 3 points in their Qs, 1 point in W, and 1 point in E. The minion waved is balanced (3-4 minions in lane for each side).
They fight 1v1 with no intervention from junglers or turret shots. If champions are supposed to be balanced together as a complete package, then both champions should die, they have nearly identical stats and are both adept at fighting 1v1. Guess what happens?
Darius kills Xin Zhao with 493 health left. All ignites and abilities are on both champions are on cooldown...exceptDarius's ultimate (which did about 360 true damage).
After the battle, I went to their Lolking pages to look up their Runes and Masteries. Both used 21-9-0 masteries and the only difference in rune setup was that Darius had traded a little bit of MR and a little bit of AD for 5% Lifesteal.
If Darius's kit is balanced, please explain how 5% lifesteal accounted for a 493 difference in health, and I will never complain about Darius again.
P.S. Darius hard-carries his team to a resounding 36-minute victory, finishing 24-5 (17 of which refreshed his ult), not an uncommon sight at all.
Because it's not a 1 on 1 game. It's a team game, and they each bring different abilities to team play as far as utility and team strategy. Xin has natural sustain, a dash, and some CC to help in team fights. There is value and power in champions beyond who can 1 v 1 at level 1 best (ask Leona, she'll tell you).
This comparison is also like saying that Darius is better in the jungle than Xin because he beat him 1v1. If a 1v1 fight is the ultimate test of balance, then that means Darius is better at Xin at all things. I'm glad I can show you the light so you don't have to spend time complaining about Darius again.
But isn't Darius designed to be the opposite of Garen? Like they're rivals, with similar skillsets. Yes, yes garen has more utility and darius has more damage so we'll leave it at that. But you can't say that Darius's ult is balanced do you? I mean he does like an AP Cho ult but with 0 cd when implemented correctly
I can't speak to how they were designed. I can promise that comparing the ults of 2 different champions to each other in a vacuum is a useless exercise.
I'm not going to pretend that i've read all 50 pages of this thread. I'm sure it's been derailed multiple times from its intended purpose, but as the dude who worked on the Garen 'update' as i refer to it, i -can- talk about the core idea behind Garen's ult having a prettttty long CD.
WARNING: THE BELOW HAS PROBABLY VERY LITTLE TO DO WITH DARIUS.
Let me first state my belief that comparison is the death of two things. Griftrix has it right that 'in a vacuum' comparisons between two separate abilities is often futile, and rarely gets us where we want to go. Simply put - there are things about not only the kits themselves but play patterns as well that vary wildly from champion to champion. Nocturne's spell shield gives attack speed. Sivir's gives mana. Which is better? Which is better for Sivir and Nocturne respectively? (As an aside, Xypherous has remarked on many occasions 'i wonder if people realize how many different abilities in our game are just Cho'Gath's Rupture?'
That said, let's look at Demacian Justice:
Active: Kills a dude.
That's pretty much it right there. The whole increased points of damage vs missing points of health thing is kind of cool and leads to some epic Skysword moments (and certainly waaaaaaaaay more damage than people give it credit for, magical or not), but that's about it. He presses the button, the animation plays, and you die.
Garen's also manaless. Darius, as well as a vast majority of our characters, has an actual cost associated with ability usage in the form of mana. Get him to use his spells and dodge them, outsustain him, do whatever you like - if he's out of mana, he's out of frustration juice and no amount of 'gamebreaking overpowered' magic is gonna make him axe your face off. I don't mean to patronize everyone out there who is rolling their eyes at being explained this principle, but i believe that having no resource is a pretty big deal. Especially so when the character in question isn't really -doing- anything with it other than just flat out killing you. Garen's pattern is kind of 'Silence you, spin on you. Repeat until ignite and ult are both up - wait an appropriate cooldown and repeat.'
With the increased farming potential Garen received, as well as a vastly improved lategame (what with lower cd's, higher damage, better buildpaths and a pretty nutty Courage), Garen's 1-10 didn't have to be pretty OP as it used to be and so we bumped up the ult CD pretty high because whenever he had it, you were dead - so we decided to make the 'cooldown only' guy gated further by his cooldowns to introduce counterplay when he's not silencing you and ruining your day with his mountain of stats.
This sort of logic is what Classick and i talked about when we decided to make Rengar's ult 140s at Rank 1 - since he's not paying anything for it. Not every resourceless champion has these types of cooldown gates on their ultimates, but i think it's healthy in general - it allows us to give pretty generous CDR on rank-up and really drive home the power that every level of the ultimate unlocks, but also has the added benefit of giving the opponent a good sense 'okay, that guy just murdered my face off and paid nothing for it, now here's an abusable window where i can mount my counterattack'.
Garens Ult scales better true but a single Hexdrinker counters it.
i've never been a fan of the 'but trivial action counters x' series of arguments because they are often guilty of leaving out important information to help the case seem 'obviously true' to anyone that reads it. i feel that the hexdrinker case might seem solid to a few people, so i wanted to math out some stuff so players had more information to judge the suggestion.
i figure we should look at a level 6 case, since hexdrinker would have the biggest impact here. we'll use darius as an opponent, and assume he's taking flat magic resist glyphs, the resistance, durability, and veteran scars masteries, and has purchased a hexdrinker (no other sources of magic resist).
resulting stats: garen ult: deals 175 + 29% of target's missing health as magic damage. darius max health: 1050 darius magic resist: 85.5 (~46% magic damage reduction)
hexdrinker shield strength: 250 versus magic damage. activates if magic damage would result in current health being < 30%
so, let's look at the fun case first to get some basic numbers. what happens when garen gets darius down to 1 health and then ults him?
damage = [ 175 + ( 0.29 * 1049 ) ] * ( 100 / 185.5 )
damage = [ 175 + 304.21 ] * ( ~54% )
damage = 479.21 * ~54%
damage = ~258, which would be ~8 magic damage after hexdrinker absorbs its share.
so, how much damage is hexdrinker preventing here? well, if darius didn't have the hexdrinker, the ult would have dealt ~308 damage. hexdrinker in its 'best case' is worth the same as 300 health (and 25 ad). this also shows that hexdrinker works well to prevent executions at practically all health levelsif darius were at 10 health, he'd only take 7 damage after the hexdrinker shield so he'd survive the ult with 3 health. pretty frustrating for garen.
looking at hexdrinker at its strongest we see that its stats can be a little better than a phage if garen attempts to use his ult as a finishing blow.
let's do a quick look at how a hexdrinker fares against a garen that knows how hexdrinker works and decides to ult darius when he's at 50% health.
what does this mean in practice? it means that garen is forced to use his ult in a 'less than perfect' case to still get decent value out of it. if this level 6 darius didn't have hexdrinker at all, he'd die instantly to garen's ult if he fell below 260 health. so speaking strictly in terms of damage, against a garen that ults at the 50% health mark, that 1400g hexdrinker is actually only adding about 80 health to this darius in a 1v1.
based on all that, i'd say a hexdrinker's survivability
is about as effective as phage against a garen that doesn't adjust his playstyle according to his opponent's build..
is about half as effective as a ruby crystal against a garen that does adjust his playstyle according to his opponent's build.
personally i'd say that hexdrinker is a gold-efficient purchase against some garen players, but not a counter to garen as a champion.
You can´t tell me that a 170 dmg Ult under the circumstance of the enemie being at 50% life is any. viable.
-i never said anything about anything being 'viable' or not. i said that hexdrinker isn't a counter to garen.
-i've found that historically it isn't very meaningful to isolate a single aspect of a champion and place it into a very specific scenario for the purposes of evaluating the overall value of said champion.
if you're actually curious to know what i think about garen, darius, et al, you're more than welcome to ask. please be try to be specific with your inquiry if you do though.
While technically speaking, a Garen that changes his playstyle to account for a Hexdrinker on his opponent won't be "countered", it was never about that item countering Garen in the first place though it can be heavily inferred if you read further. It's a counter to his ultimate, and it does exactly that. You stated yourself that a Darius that doesn't build Hexdrinker allows Garen to play optimally in the lane phase and kill him whenever his ult is up (assuming Darius doesn't slay Garen first --- we're going to assume for the sake of simplicity that Darius doesn't fight back effectively). A Darius that DOES build Hexdrinker, however, forces the enemy Garen to change his style to a sub-optimal one just so that his ulimate can be of any value, completely ruining the entire point of the ultimate and turning it into a much-less spammable Kha'zix Q. This is NOT what a Garen wants to do, and being forced to do so will allow the Darius player much more time to set up his own ultimate which can only be countered by stacking HP -- something most champions have too little of in the lane.
Compound this issue with the ease of which Armor can be obtained early-game, that Darius scales much better for teamfights than Garen (and brings something more players find infinitely more useful than a melee-range, single-target Silence -- ie: a conical grab that can interrupt the entire enemy team potentially) while building the same kind of items Garen wants to build, for the most part, and it just starts looking worse and worse for the original executor. This is really just a tangent though.
I guess what you can take away from this is that while Hexdrinker isn't a hard-counter to adaptive Garen players, forcing him to play less than optimally just so one of his skills can do damage is a counter to his lanephase presence. And a Garen that isn't on a spree before the lanephase ends isn't going to contribute much, if anything, during teamfights.
this is a reasonable analysis of how the purchase would play out in theory, but in practice it's a lot less severe than that. darius would be doing himself a lot more good by buying armor, unless you're saying that shaving about 80 damage from garen's ult is worth 1400g and eating way more physical damage in every other exchange.
in the example i posted earlier, that darius that got ulted at 50% health would die from the subsequent decisive strike, judgement, and ignite (assuming garen is spec'd to kill in lane).