S3 Jungle Gold Starvation Still Exists

  • From looking at the patch notes it appears that the gold starvation for farming jungle vs ganking has not been resolved. Based on the numbers provided a full clear will actually yield slightly LESS gold then in S2. This is slightly offset by the global ambient gold generated, but honestly... not by much.

    If I am not mistaken junglers will still be gold deprived unless they spend most of their time ganking since farming jungle simply won't let them keep pace... something Riot claimed to try and fix with these jungle changes. To further the concern Heart of Gold (a staple jungler item) has been removed... and is, honestly, the core reason for the ambient gold increase.

    I would love to see people's opinions on the issue, especially Statik and Reds. Perhaps I am wrong? Come at me logic!

    Edit: Too elaborate

    In short... Here is my problem: Junglers will need to gank even more now due to jungle changes in order to keep pace or suffer falling behind, but ganking is now even more difficult then it was before due to stronger jungle creeps and less sustain. Those that succeed since they really have to in order to perform will still decide lanes as this issue has not changed and those who fail will just fall miserably behind along with potentially their team's lanes that fall to ganks. Junglers that were dominant at destroying lanes through potent ganks early game will still be relatively unaffected by this change (Lee Sin is a great example) and thus the core problem persists but further limits champion jungle options. Ganking should help give the lanes you gank a serious advantage and pressure to the enemy in that lane. Farming jungle instead of ganking should generate considerable gold if you are not going to gank to give your team (multiple players) a distinct advantage. Simply put... there is currently no existing reason not to focus almost solely on ganking with the occasional side farm.
  • I'd like to wait a bit before jumping to any conclusions just yet.

    It's extremely difficult to gauge potential optimal jungler gold because:

    1) success in the jungle varies drastically depending on the game

    2) the current "meta" still caters farm toward laners

    For example, junglers are almost always the top gold in the game for the first 5 minutes due to the sigil buffs, but due to the current meta they lose access to that gold source very quickly (after the first clear).

    Additionally, it's still normal practice for laners to poach stuff from their jungler (though it has become more difficult to do so). Do you ever wonder why players refer to lane poaching as a jungle "tax" (negative connotation) while on the other hand mid taking wraiths is something that is normal / acceptable?

    Junglers are still expected to support the map rather than make the best decision for themselves at any given moment during the course of the game. I mean you guys kind of summed it up as "...after 11 minutes...nobody really lets you farm the jungle."

    My point is the way we are used to playing the game tends to push junglers towards being poor and feeling like a "support."

    Let's also be clear, I don't think it's a reasonable expectation for us to allow junglers to just circle clear for 25 minutes and then suddenly come out and crush everyone. A jungler should be rewarded for balancing all the choices in front of them and consistently making the best choices.

    So in sum, I'd like to wait and see if there are legitimate strategies where the jungler is allowed to be more selfish and succeed. If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it, but I think we need to at least make a concerted effort to see the different possibilities.
  • Quote:
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    Originally Posted by Fredmonroe View Post
    This I actually don't understand. If a Jungler completely ignores helping lanes for 25 minutes straight, and maintains control of his jungle and perhaps parts of the enemy jungle, and even takes both buffs, he should be megapowerful. It seems to me that having little to no jungle pressure in the early game and part of the midgame, is a fair price to pay for this power, and that's the tradeoff.

    You say you want there to be decisions, but if playing extremely selfishly to the point where it will harm your team, doesn't lead to any rewards... then I don't even.
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    Hmm yeah this is true.

    The question then comes down to if the optimal farming strategy in the jungle should be to solely focus on farming or to heavily focus on farming but also opportunistically gank when it is extremely convenient. I guess the latter will most likely be the highest reward currently in the game, and that was sort of what I was getting at.

    It still stands, I am in the process of observing and collecting data on the Live servers.
  • The new jungle, like all of the S3 changes, is going to take alot of getting used to.

    I think something that wasn't vocalized enough is that the early jungle is actually nerfed. Hopefully we can accept that the swing in the early game that the jungler provided in S2 was a little much, and it added an overabundance of responsibility on a single player.

    From there, the question becomes, why would I want to play a jungler now? how do I keep up with solo laners?

    I don't think circling the jungle for 25 minutes not ganking and coming out ahead is good for the game, and it's also not something that is heavily incentivised. Jungle minions, like lane minions, and like all farm on the map are a shared resource for everyone on the team to divide.

    These changes are aimed at making the jungler an equal contributor to the outcome of the game. One of the problems we run into though, is that the jungle is the most dynamic and therefore variant position on the team. I've been in multiple games in the past day or two where I have CARRIED HARD out of the jungle. I do my clear, land an opportunistic gank at level 4-5, push the lane from there, and just hold my advantage throughout the match.

    But it is also easily understandable, that you if you do a jungle clear, fail 4-5 ganks in a row, press too hard, fail an invade, die, lose buffs, and get counter-jungled, you're gonna feel terrible. I can almost guarantee that in that scenario you will probably be even further behind than if it happened in season 2.

    One thing I would caution towards when thinking about these changes, is the potential for adaptation. I don't think the current play of the jungle is at all optimal. Perhaps now that mid lane champs have better mana itemization (tear buff), the jungler can have access to 2nd blue buff. Maybe now that wraiths are more difficult for mid to take, it's more optimal to differ that farm to the jungler at all times. Maybe now that double golums are worth proportionally more gold, junglers will spend more time killing them and be rewarded for it. Maybe now that the jungle takes longer to kill, players will spend less time camping lanes, and more time planning efficient gank routes.

    I'm not saying we have it solved. We probably haven't, we probably have to tweak things. Just make sure to keep an open mind when trying this stuff, and remember how long it took to reach the level of understanding we all had of the S2 jungle. This patch has been out for 2 days, alot of OP stuff is probably still hidden within the new jungle.