New Jungle --- Be Warned!

  • EDIT 1/15 So are you guys increasing the HP, but not increasing the XP to compensate???... won't this just make us get further behind? Guess we'll have to wait and see.
    EDIT 1/3 These jungle nerfs are making me cry, and I am losing motivation to play :/ Any updates? Its hard to play ranked and feel like you are doing something... basically, as a jungler you just try to get "less behind" than their jungler.

    After many test runs, and lots of research (i.e. Stonewall) I thought I would post my thoughts and some info on the new jungle.

    To be honest, being a jungler main I am quite sad with the changes/decisions Riot has made, but if my role's effect on the game needs to be "weakened" to help balance the overall game, then that is their right and I will trust that they are making these decisions for the good of the game.

    So here are the details:

    EDIT: PLEASE KEEP IN MIND I AM NOT TRYING TO START A RAGEFEST. I am just sharing some info, and my observations... sharing opinions, positive and negative, are ok... but please keep things civil.

    Jungle Clear Times-
    Pretty similar overall to be honest. Most champions take slightly longer and come out with lower hp. Both of which is mainly due to the increased difficulty of the big wolf. This is noticable but not drastic on strong junglers.

    Jungle Items-
    For a competitive clear time, you are pretty much forced to buy the new Hunters Machette. This item works well in the jungle, and has some decent build options... there is just one big drawback with this item, which I will get to later. On the bright side, Riot did increase base movement speeds while lowering the advantage of having boots, so its not quite as much of a punishment movespeed wise.

    Jungle Diversity-
    Quote:
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    Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
    Overall, we hope these preseason changes will make the jungle a place where more varied champions, roles, and playstyles are viable. We don’t intend to remove any of the junglers that are currently viable – only add to the lineup.
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    I don't think this has happened. It has definitely shifted around the Jungle Tiers a bit, but I don't see a single champion that wasn't viable before, now becoming viable. It has made some junglers weaker by comparison though, making some semi-rare junglers stronger. The main 2 in this category being Diana and Darius (Edit: I might add kayle to this list too)

    Jungle Gold-
    There is no increase in gold. Like none. This is my biggest concern, and what I feel is really "nerfing" us junglers quite a bit, and is nothing like they made it sound (quotes and evidence below). I can understand their reasons for doing this (I guess) but I feel they should be more clear with the community about it. However, I understand them wanting to avoid the often overblown outrage of this community. Let me share some quotes before I continue my thoughts...

    Quote:
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    Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
    Next, we’re also going to significantly increase the rewards (gold and XP) and scaling difficulty (health and damage that the monsters gain over time) of the jungle as a game progresses. This way junglers who shift their focus toward farming the jungle efficiently can acquire gold and experience faster.
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    I have the highest respect for Statikk, but I must say I feel this is an innacurate statement based on my tests and others in the new jungle. If I focus toward farming, I see NO difference in gold before the laning phase is over, and often a decrease since with several champs, you need to go back to fountain more often, and purchase more pots. (p.s. no more early vamp scepter option = more pots for these champs, and no HoG gold option for tank junglers)

    Stonewall's response to one of Morello's posts:
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    Originally Posted by Stonewall008 View Post
    Okay turns out I'm wrong too.

    I don't know if the extra gold gain is supposed to be higher after 11 minutes but I ran around as Shyvana just farming nonstop only my jungle.

    At exactly 11 minutes (even shows in the footage) I obtained 2825 gold. That prompted me to ask other players to do the same thing but with LIVE Shyvana. They obtained 2800 gold - give or take a few because of inevitable inconsistencies. We basically earned the same amount of gold.

    Even if gold gains increase after 11 minutes - I'm sure we both know the jungler won't be allowed to farm uninterrupted at that point (or even before 11 minutes anyways) or the laners will start sapping it themselves.
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    Originally Posted by Morello View Post
    That's the breakpoint we're using currently since early gold gains aren't bad here - the later game ones are tragically low though. This may need adjustment as we look more, but it's a reasonable starting point.

    Additionally, we do expect a bit more gold on "safer" junglers since they disrupt less for ganks.
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    I hope they do make some significant adjustments. But like I said before... they are the makers of the game, and they need to do what they think is best for balancing. Just... be warned junglers.


    Overall Outcome:

    This is forcing junglers into support 2.0 which some junglers already were. Now it will be much harder for any jungler to break out of this role, and here is why...

    1. Less gold. For many reasons. No more HoG, no more vamp scepter start, and almost all junglers need a few more pots to make it through this jungle (nunu maybe only exception).

    2. Less ganking = less chance for gold. It is now admittedly harder to gank, as stated above. If we are supposed to farm for the laning phase of the game and are 0-0-0 while top is 3-3-1, that is significant decrease in gold. I don't know if Riot took this into consideration. But less kills/assists = less gold... =O

    3. Hunter's Machette. Helps in the jungle... but vs another champ, you might as well have literally NOTHING in your inventory. Yes, the upgrades do start giving some "real" statistics vs other champs, and I do like some of the options (except needing to put 180g into mana on manaless champs like shyv, mundo etc if you want the only tank item) but a high % of your gold is going towards increasing damage to minions... not defense or offense vs champions.

    This is a huge change and sets back the jungler even further when fights start happening. I am especially upset that this is the substitue for the old HoG option which at least helped tanky junglers get some gold and real overall defense.


    Quote:
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    Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
    As usual, we’re open to making changes as things develop, and we want to hear your feedback on both new junglers and your standbys as you experiment. Don’t hesitate to leave us a comment once you’ve hit the Fields of Justice!
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    Ask and you shall receive. I don't mean to be harsh, and some of the changes are very clever/interesting/exciting (mainly items). I personally hope the gold gains are at least increased... but as a jungle main, I am biased.

    TL;DR
    Jungler's need to be prepared to be a "semi-support" in Season 3 with these new changes. It is still possible to gank and carry etc. This is just a nerf on that potential outcome.


    Edit: Wow... thanks for the support/feedback guys. I will try to keep up on this every few hours and give answers/feedback to your questions (or copy and paste stonewall's for you ).

    Edit 2: This is from a different thread, but it is the best honest summary of the jungle I have seen... not quite a genuine lol, but it did make me smirk
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    Originally Posted by Jordian View Post
    Why is the jungle basically the exact same besides it lowers everyone's clear time by about 10secs and you get hurt a little more. Also you get no extra gold atm.
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    Edit 3: 100 upvotes woot!

    Edit 4:
    PATCH RELEASED, my current thoughts: So to be honest, I am a little more upset now that it has been a couple weeks and they have released the jungle in this state. I am less upset that they nerfed it, and more upset that they are continuing to sell it as a buff. Looking at the gold gains vs difficulty of the new jungle it is very frustrating to see them claiming this will help out junglers... i.e. the wraith camp DECREASED in overall gold, and the wolf camp has an overall gain of 2 gold (not considering ambient here) but they nearly doubled the health of the big wolf and increased its damage. It takes about twice as long to do, and damages you more :/ These changes are not encouraging us to farm more than gank early... it might encourage us to gank more, since farming hurts us so much. I'm being a little drastic I guess, but it is frustrating for me to hear them keep selling this as a buff. They are pretending to nerf lane gold too (barely), but did anyone notice the HUGE gold gain on the siege minion? Where is our huge gold gain?

    Quote:
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    Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
    If it turns out we got the gold values wrong and the goals aren't being met, then we'll look to fix it...
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    I think it has turned out this way, and I hope we get a fix soon.
  • Sorry I never got to read this post before now, it's well thought out and unfortunately our team was working really hard to get the patch to release on time.

    I agree that the break point for gold is probably not fast enough. Something like the 7-8 minutes (the second buff spawns) seems like a more reasonable spot.

    Another question though, how is Experience generally feeling in the jungle. Do you guys feel under-leveled or just out-golded?
  • Quote:
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    Originally Posted by JoeyMakesMagic View Post
    Experience is beyond terrible, i'm always at least a level below the laner, if not more
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    Well it's intended that junglers should not be out-leveling the solo lanes. We always intended jungle experience to generally lie between the solo and the duo lanes.

    If you're consistently under-leveled compared to the duo lane, then we may have a problem.
  • Quote:
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    Originally Posted by Blazing Pascal View Post
    Wow Statikk, I am honored that you posted in my thread... considering all the heat in here

    I feel the experience gains are fine (for strong junglers), and in fact it appears to be improved. For "average" junglers it doesn't help because they have to go back too frequently to heal and buy more pots.

    So to answer your qustion, I don't feel under-leveled most of the time... just out-golded. This would apply to junglers like Olaf, Mundo, Amumu, Sej, Cho, Skarner, Udyr etc.

    I personally try to abuse this situation and invade the enemy jungler to compensate... but I can't expect to kill the enemy jungler every game for my gold income
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    Well it's our job to make the game balanced and fun. Even though there may be negativity about something we've done to the game, it needs to be looked at as an opportunity to improve what we have rather than something to avoid.

    I honestly thank you guys for being passionate enough to post about this and a well thought-out post and summary like this deserves to be responded to IMO.
  • Unfortunately I'm still of the opinion that we should not jump to any conclusions just yet. Everyone is still learning what is optimal and what is strong, so with such a giant amount of change there needs to be time to let things settle.

    Right now, I'm in the process of observing data and running an analysis on the numbers before moving forward with any potential changes.
  • Quote:
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    Originally Posted by Statikk View Post
    Unfortunately I'm still of the opinion that we should not jump to any conclusions just yet. Everyone is still learning what is optimal and what is strong, so with such a giant amount of change there needs to be time to let things settle.

    Right now, I'm in the process of observing data and running an analysis on the numbers before moving forward with any potential changes.
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    Want to emphasize this. We're in no way saying "everything's fine/no changes!", but we are going to be letting people learn things a bit before making big changes, unless its egregious.

    Jungle changes are always met with hate unless it just raw buffs the jungle (actually, in S2 it did, it just took awhile for people to realize it), so understand if we want to let the dust settle a little before jumping in head first.
  • Quote:
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    Originally Posted by imweasel09 View Post
    If memory serves the s2 jungle needed immediate buffs because there wasn't even enough xp to get level 4 off a full clear.
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    True - there were some things to fix (and may need some here too!) but even after there was a lot of feedback about how bad it was for junglers. It's a combination of making sure our impact equals our intent, and factoring in the variable of the learning curves/difference as well.