Riot, I would like some clarification on the Teemo nerfs

  • As you guys know, Teemo got nerfed :

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    Originally Posted by Morello View Post
    Teemo
    • Toxic Shot
      • Ability Power ratio on impact reduced to 0.3 from 0.4
    • Noxious Trap
      • Damage reduced at later ranks to 200/325/450 from 200/400/600
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    I'll try to explain the nerfs to the best of my understanding. They nerfed his mushrooms because of two things :

    a) Liandry's Torment synergized too well with his mushrooms
    b) Oracle duration being reduced to 5 minutes

    Now, I have three questions for Riot.

    1. If the mushrooms did too much damage (assuming they really did), why not nerf the AP ratio instead of the base damage?

    In season 3, we were told that items and mastery would increase build diversity and play style.

    However, with the nerf to the base damage of the mushrooms, it penalizes even further anyone who is not playing AP Teemo. Not everyone play AP Teemo (he can also be played on-hit, bruiser, hybrid, etc.) nor does everyone build Liandry's Torment. By doing this, you are narrowing Teemo players to play only AP, since any other build will be less effective.

    2. Xypherous told us that, with the new Runaan's Hurricane item, he would love to see Teemo become an "aoe mage". If so, then why nerf the AP ratio on his E, his main source of damage?

    I think Teemo's issue is that his poison does too much damage early, and not enough end game. Then why nerf his AP ratio and make Teemo's late game even more unstable instead of adjusting the early game number? His short range makes him already hard to even use as an aoe mage to begin with.

    3. Why would you nerf a champion solely because of items?

    Let's face it, the only reason Teemo is getting nerfed is because of some of the new items. I think nerfing a champion based on the items a player MIGHT get is a very bad move. If anything, the item should be nerfed, not the champion.

    I'dd love some clarification on these nerfs, because I just don't understand them, and I think they go against the philosophy that Riot wanted to instore in season 3, which is to improve player’s choice, and not reduce them.

    I'll also leave a link to another very valid post featuring some issues about the nerfs : http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...ghlight=runaan

    One of the quote included in this post :

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    Originally Posted by harry13aals View Post
    It's the perfect example of a QQ nerf instead of one based on actual champion strength. "New S3 items made him OP" - then where are the Riven/Talon/Urgot/Veigar/LB nerfs? If the on-hit items were too much, nerf his E by itself. Liandry's + mushroom? If you're balancing Teemo around getting that item, you're pretty much forcing all Teemos to build Liandry's in order to not be playing an underpowered champ.
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    Originally Posted by Yfrappefort View Post
    As you guys know, Teemo is getting some nerfs soon :



    I'll try to explain the nerfs to the best of my understanding. They nerfed his mushrooms because of two things :

    a) Liandry's Torment synergized too well with his mushrooms
    b) Oracle duration being reduced to 5 minutes

    Now, I have three questions for Riot.

    1. If the mushrooms did too much damage (assuming they really did), why not nerf the AP ratio instead of the base damage?

    In season 3, we were told that items and mastery would increase build diversity and play style.

    However, with the nerf to the base damage of the mushrooms, it penalizes even further anyone who is not playing AP Teemo. Not everyone play AP Teemo (he can also be played on-hit, bruiser, hybrid, etc.) nor does everyone build Liandry's Torment. By doing this, you are narrowing Teemo players to play only AP, since any other build will be less effective.

    2. Xypherous told us that, with the new Runaan's Hurricane item, he would love to see Teemo become an "aoe mage". If so, then why nerf the AP ratio on his E, his main source of damage?

    I think Teemo's issue is that his poison does too much damage early, and not enough end game. Then why nerf his AP ratio and make Teemo's late game even more unstable instead of adjusting the early game number? His short range makes him already hard to even use as an aoe mage to begin with.

    3. Why would you nerf a champion solely because of items?

    Let's face it, the only reason Teemo is getting nerfed is because of some of the new items. I think nerfing a champion based on the items a player MIGHT get is a very bad move. If anything, the item should be nerfed, not the champion.

    I'dd love some clarification on these nerfs, because I just don't understand them, and I think they go against the philosophy that Riot wanted to instore in season 3, which is to improve player’s choice, and not reduce them.

    I'll also leave a link to another very valid post featuring some issues about the nerfs : http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...ghlight=runaan

    One of the quote included in this post :
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    1. On-hit Teemo (compared to AP Teemo) utilizes mushrooms more as zone control and a kiting tool. Shroom damage is very nice but it is not what on-hit builds are aiming for. Contrast this with the AP Teemo, for him, shrooms are his main damage source. He is building loads of AP to create the shrooms of doom. So we decided to nerf base damages rather than the AP ratio (or the duration or slow strength for that matter) - this drives the gap between on-hit Teemo and AP Teemo's playstyles further apart and keeps what the different styles want for their shrooms intact..

    2. I do not understand the logic here, are we never allowed to nerf AP ratios on mages since they 'should be a mage'? The ratio on E was nerfed because it and the high shroom base damage was driving on-hit Teemo and AP Teemo to become too similar. We took the opposite approach here compared to the shrooms as on-hits are affected much less by AP ratios, compared to AP.

    3. Teemo was allowed very high damage on his E (and Q) AND on his R because the two did not merge easily. If you built AP your shrooms hurt a ton but your sustained dps was low, if you built on-hit your dps was high but you put yourself in danger because you don't contribute as much outside your short autoattack range. Season 3 basically took away this distinction as it both made his shrooms more powerful AND improved his in combat dps by a lot. (The initial buffs to his E ratio also caused this and I had regretted it since then, it should have been buffed less)
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    Originally Posted by exe3 View Post
    @ Solcrushed

    Can you speak at all about what is being done about Teemo for Twisted Treeline? He is completely broken on that map due to the sheer density of his shroom coverage. RiotNome said that something was going to be done about him but I don't believe this is what he was talking about as these nerfs don't address his problems on TT at all.
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    Unfortunately TT is much more Nome's realm than mine and I am not very aware what is being done here. That said, I am sure Nome will figure something out and I will ping him tomorrow to make sure that he is working on the issue. (Note that I may not be able to give you information for a variety of reasons, I merely promise that it will continue to be looked at)
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    Originally Posted by TeamWorkTom View Post
    The reasoning is wonderful but the practicality of it isn't. To nerf something because two roles are similar is terrible justification for over all balance. Teemo in S2 had no real spot on a team. Even now he is still a Top pick and not an AD and arguably still dose not have a true place in a team.

    You could theory craft many team compositions and he has no real synergy to any team, he is an odd pick and usually picked for specific reasons such as extra ward coverage or a counter pick.

    With that being said, does his current state of balance really warrant a nerf? Is he ruining games because of the new items? Or is it just that AP Teemo and On-Hit Teemo are too similar in their role and you want diversity for the sake of diversity instead of over all champion balance?
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    I realize that I worded my initial post badly. (English too hard) Teemo was nerfed because we felt he was out of line and I was explaining why we chose the specific areas to hit - to preserve the unique parts of each style as much as possible.

    We would never nerf a balanced champion for diversity's sake. Logically, if a champion is balanced and we want to 'diversify' him, the champion would at least need a buff/nerf. A flat nerf does not make amy sense.