Looking for Sejuani Feedback

  • Hi folks,

    We’re considering making some gameplay changes to Sejuani at the moment. As a result I'm looking to gather some thoughts on her current gameplay, in particular:

    1. What do you like about her current kit/what would you be saddened to see changed or removed?

    2. What do you dislike about her current kit?

    3. What would you like to see tweaked or added?


    Feedback much appreciated, this sort of discussion's been really valuable when doing previous gameplay changes. I'll be reading through every response here, though I won't have the time to respond directly to most of the posts unfortunately. I'll also be reading through a bunch of previous Sejuani discussion threads, wanted to create a new one though to get people's impressions in light of all the recent pre-season changes.

    EDIT: UPDATE 1

    Hey folks, first update on progress with Sejuani here. Since the original post I've gathered a bunch of feedback, particularly through threads like this, and tried out various changes in internal playtests, some of which have tested well, some of which haven't and some of which are still works in progress. The goal of these changes is to try and maintain what people like about Sejuani while adding a bit more perceived impact/readability to her abilities, increasing her opportunities for big plays (and, if needed to balance that, adding a bit more counterplay in exchange) and investigating a bit of increased use of her boar/flail as thematic elements if appropriate.

    Examples of things that have already tested well and are likely to be part of her rework (generally low risk quality of life improvements):

    1. Changing the mark for Permafrost from a very weak slow to a non CC debuff. This allows allows the mark's duration to be extended to a longer value than would be appropriate for a slow and stops the mark from having a reduced duration against targets with CC.

    2. A clearer particle for that mark so it's really clear at any point which enemies will be affected by Permafrost's activation.

    3. Slightly increased responsiveness on Artic Assualt when it comes to detecting collisions with enemies and calculating travel through terrain, courtesy of some tech improvements since her development.


    Examples of things still in testing (being experimented with to see if they work, not guaranteed to happen):

    1. Base stat tweaks

    2. Adding a bit of tankiness somewhere on the kit to better match Sejuani's thematics (tough warrior on a giant boar) and reduce the amount of damage she takes early on.

    3. Changes to Artic Assault's behaviour on hitting an enemy champion (e.g. stronger CC than just a slow)

    4. Whether Northern Winds should apply the mark for Permafrost and then have its gameplay tweaked (since the current 'bonus damage against Frosted targets' interaction would then be irrelevant)

    5. Increasing risk of play slightly and in exchange increasing reward for good play to match.


    The next step design side is simply more testing and iteration, both on the examples listed above and some other stuff. Then, once we've got a set of changes we're happy with, we'll refine those, balance them and, where needed then work with our art department on new visual/audio elements (e.g. the clearer mark for Permafost as above). As previously mentioned there's also some interest internally in tweaking Sejuani's appearance a bit. That's not my area of expertise so I'll try and catch IronStylus at some point and see if there's anything concrete about that can be passed on about that. As far as timeframe for all of this goes there's still a fair while to go - I expect we'll see at least one other rework out before Sejuani's. Stuff is progressing though and I'll update again in a while once we've got things more locked down design side.

    EDIT: UPDATE 2

    Hi all, just a short update this time. We're currently investigating some options on the visual side of things and looking at how those tie in with gameplay. Stuff's still going on and we haven't forgotten this thread, nothing new and concrete to discuss yet though, will update when there is or again after a while.
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    Originally Posted by Rossingol View Post
    You should probably also look at the "Hi, I'm Sejuani and I need to be sent back to the Drawing Board" topic on GD for more information, as they all go quite into depth there.
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    I'm working my way through that thread as we speak, there's definitely a bunch of good discussion in there.
  • This is pertinent to my interests.
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    Originally Posted by Rustyemo View Post
    any news on this ?..
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    Still gathering feedback at this point, lot of decent discussion to read through.

    Just to be clear this isn't going to result in any immediate changes. We'll start testing some stuff internally sometime in January but there'll be a fair bit of testing and iteration needed so it'll take a while to get to the end of the process. I'll post a progress update at some point once we've got a direction locked down.
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    Originally Posted by Raviance View Post
    Just curious, after the bump in armor and the additional second to Northern Winds is it possible that everything tested internally may be viewed as op and result in no additional changes? Or is it believed internally that Sejuani does need something else?
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    Balance isn't our only focus here. Power wise Sejuani's arguably in an ok spot at the moment if played optimally/against the right match ups. We're also looking at things like thematic cohesion with gameplay (should the boar or flail do a bit more for example), counter play (is it too binary based off which champions she's against, amongst other things) and visual readability (who's debuffed by what, which targets are taking how much damage etc).
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    Originally Posted by ScorchingBlast View Post
    Yeah...it has been 2 weeks since we last had news about the upcoming improvement of sejuani. Is it possible for riot to tell us the current status of their work?

    i am a huge sejuani lover and main her in jungle. the times passes so slow to keep waiting for the update of her buff
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    I'll get together an update on where things have progressed to for you sometime this week most likely. As stated please do bear in mind this still has a way to go - odds are you'll see another champion's rework come out before Sejuani's, particularly since there's some interest on the art side in getting a few visual tweaks in too.
  • Hey folks, first update on progress with Sejuani here. Since the original post I've gathered a bunch of feedback, particularly through threads like this, and tried out various changes in internal playtests, some of which have tested well, some of which haven't and some of which are still works in progress. The goal of these changes is to try and maintain what people like about Sejuani while adding a bit more perceived impact/readability to her abilities, increasing her opportunities for big plays (and, if needed to balance that, adding a bit more counterplay in exchange) and investigating a bit of increased use of her boar/flail as thematic elements if appropriate.

    Examples of things that have already tested well and are likely to be part of her rework (generally low risk quality of life improvements):

    1. Changing the mark for Permafrost from a very weak slow to a non CC debuff. This allows allows the mark's duration to be extended to a longer value than would be appropriate for a slow and stops the mark from having a reduced duration against targets with CC.

    2. A clearer particle for that mark so it's really clear at any point which enemies will be affected by Permafrost's activation.

    3. Slightly increased responsiveness on Artic Assualt when it comes to detecting collisions with enemies and calculating travel through terrain, courtesy of some tech improvements since her development.


    Examples of things still in testing (being experimented with to see if they work, not guaranteed to happen):

    1. Base stat tweaks

    2. Adding a bit of tankiness somewhere on the kit to better match Sejuani's thematics (tough warrior on a giant boar) and reduce the amount of damage she takes early on.

    3. Changes to Artic Assault's behaviour on hitting an enemy champion (e.g. stronger CC than just a slow)

    4. Whether Northern Winds should apply the mark for Permafrost and then have its gameplay tweaked (since the current 'bonus damage against Frosted targets' interaction would then be irrelevant)

    5. Increasing risk of play slightly and in exchange increasing reward for good play to match.


    The next step design side is simply more testing and iteration, both on the examples listed above and some other stuff. Then, once we've got a set of changes we're happy with, we'll refine those, balance them and, where needed then work with our art department on new visual/audio elements (e.g. the clearer mark for Permafost as above). As previously mentioned there's also some interest internally in tweaking Sejuani's appearance a bit. That's not my area of expertise so I'll try and catch IronStylus at some point and see if there's anything concrete about that can be passed on about that. As far as timeframe for all of this goes there's still a fair while to go - I expect we'll see at least one other rework out before Sejuani's. Stuff is progressing though and I'll update again in a while once we've got things more locked down design side.
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    Originally Posted by Kikhan View Post
    PS side note question has Sej and Hecarims increased model size/hit box size actually been taken into account during balancing questions. I have never seen it mentioned and yet they are certainly easier to hit by skill shot champions.
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    Champion size is one of the things we take into account. On some champions it offers positives as well as negatives though. A larger model makes it easier to land charge abilities for example.
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    Originally Posted by MTaur View Post
    One thing I'm worried about: Sejuani's passive lets her use Liandry's Torment. That's the primary thing that it's good for, really. W applies procs, and autos make them into strong procs.

    It might not be too severe of a loss, especially if the new Q applies a hard CC that stretches out the strong procs a bit more. (Also, Liandry's is a nice damage item, but not strictly necessary to build, so it's cool)

    But it's something to consider.
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    Removal of the 10% slow would indeed impact the benefit Sejuani gets from Liandry's, which is definitely a point of note r.e. sustained damage and therefore teamfight threat, no argument there. On the other hand balancing her state around a single item, thereby leaving her vulnerable to changes to that item and to the meta (high health builds as at present) that item performs best in makes it harder to get her to, and keep her in, a balanced, well performing spot. Consequently it's a thing to watch but not a primary point of concern.
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    Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post

    1) Is this removing the slow from her autos?
    Cause that isnt what was asked for...
    If you mean seperating the slow applied from the mark that allows the casting of permafrost, so that they cant use merc treads or cleanse out of it, etc.
    So that permafrost can always be cast if the mark is their regardless if the slow is their or not, than this is good.
    IF however you mean your removing the slow completely.... then im extremely worried cause thats a major nerf and some significant power would need to be added elsewhere.
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    We are experimenting with removing the slow from her autos and instead giving her a new passive, with the mark system then being a passive built into Permafrost. Loss of a 10% slow is indeed a removal of some power, we'd be looking to compensate for that though of course and, at end of day, a 10% slow doesn't actually offer that much effect, particularly because it's often occuring with another slow (e.g. red buff) and thererfore suffering the secondary slow penalty which reduces it's strength to almost nothing.

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    Originally Posted by DEagleEye View Post
    3) Also great, Ive had troubles with using q over walls, cant wait for this. However increased responsivness how?
    Do you mean, making it so the casting of the ability is less clunky, or easier to cast while moving so that you actually gain the full effect?
    Or just the responsive of the reaction when colliding with enemies, so that you can continue moving immediately after the collision (unlike now where you sometimes seem to be rooted for bout 0.5 of a sec)
    Or, preferably, both?
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    The charge responsiveness changes actually include a few things - detecting an enemy's been hit slightly quicker some of the time, reducing the brief pause at the end of the charge that occurs sometimes, preserving move orders if they're in the same direction as the charge, improved passing through terrain and finally adjusting the charge range indicator to match the actual distance traveled (the current indicator's slightly longer than the actual distance - I'm guessing one got reduced in live balancing before her release and the other got missed).