So her "rework" is gonna be similar to garen's where you just change the skills around and ad stuff to them?
Potentially. Her passive's likely to change as above, assuming we shift the mark for Permafrost to a passive on Permafrost itself. Beyond that depends on testing - might just be tuning on the other skills, might be some functionality changes, not sure yet.
"I JUST STARTED PLAYING YESTERDAY" Please, dont comment when you have no experience with the goddam champion.
My experience is that the majority of players asking for sejuani buffs have either
1) Never played her
OR
2) Rarely played her, low amount of games with her
Really, play the champ, play her for a while till you actually learn her, before commentating on whats weak or not...your comments are just gotta end up, more likely or not, ruining a perfectly good champ because you dont know how to play them
Feedback from people that haven't played a champion much can be really valuable, especially if there's something that's really off putting or unclear during your first few games. It's a very different sort of to what experienced players with a champion can offer (first impressions/skill floor versus balance and mastery insight) so it's really good to get both. What's particularly helpful is clarity on what sort of background people are presenting their feedback from - new player, occasional player, Sejuani main etc.
Hmmm. I have some ideas about redistributing Sejuani's power, but I don't know how they'll go over. They might be healthy for the game, but unpopular. Here goes.
Sejuani has unusual scaling for a tank. Now that health is more relatively gold-efficient than other stats, she can stack 4k health without instantly blowing up every fight. This is new. Further, an overfed Sejuani does a *lot* of damage.
On the other hand, her damage against a tanky team usually falls off. She has to get to the carries or she's rather lackluster; Liandry's Torment is the very best way to build around this pitfal.
However, the power curve can potentially be a bit abusive. Sunfire + Warmog's essentially makes Sejuani something like a pre-nerf Atmog's Sion.
The flip side is that at level one, and generally any time she's underfed, she's uniquely squishy for a tank, having no steroids or shields at all.
One option would be to give her innate tankiness in some small amount on some skill, perhaps W, and then shave off some health scaling. Not a ton, maybe +20 or 30 armor or MR at 5, and 1.5 or 1.75 instead of 2 health scaling; I don't know. The point being that now AP outscales health on W if you want damage, and a Sejuani who builds tanky will actually be choosing tankiness over damage, while still scaling a comfortably good amount on the damage side for it.
If you don't automatically get *too much* damage per health, then buying squishy isn't as suicidal, and building health isn't quite as steamrollingly powerful. The idea is that when you pay for free resists and give up a bit of health scaling, the worst case doesn't instantly blow up, and the best case has more variety (and should either be equally strong, or maybe slightly weaker - Sejuani is rocking 53% or so win rate now. She's *good*, maybe incoming FotM at this rate, I don't know for sure).
I've also got some concerns about this. At the moment Sejuani's in quite a strong spot late game because health stacking's generally the best defensive option and fights are lasting a bit longer, giving her more time to take advantage of her strong, sustained AOE damage. Should that change however, and I'm expecting we will see a shift towards mitigation being a solid, appropriate option again at some point, her effectiveness will take a bit of a hit. To some degree that's fine, champions should have strengths/weakness that relate to the state of the game at any point in time, there's certainly some risk though with specific niches that champions may only feel decent/effective when a bunch of other factors align which can be a problem.
Denied, I don't like removing her 10% slow. Even if marginal, which 10% is, and even if smaller after red buff, it's 10% of their remaining speed. If they have the same speed as you, or even slightly faster, 10% should be more than enough to stay on them. You're not chasing them, you're staying on them.
Unless you somehow give her some other way to stay on them, and E isn't enough since she has no way to burn someone down fast enough.
You basically have to give her more offense if you take this away. The complaint on Sej has always been that she is either not tanky enough or doesn't have enough offense, and possibly/probably both. Her slows are what kept her from being used less than Karma. Taking one away seems like the exact opposite of what you should do.
It's not just that the slow is reducing a smaller total after red buff is applied, but that all slows against a target except for the most powerful also have their power cut to 35% (from memory, exact figure might be a bit different but it's around that point) of the listed number. As a result if you've got red buff your passive is only adding a 3.5% slow, not a 10% slow.
Sure the Eve remake was fine and Sejuani did need some adjustment but a rework of her kit? Its not like "stealth is broken"
Definitely won't be looking at anything as large as Eve's rework, agree that her issues aren't the sort that need massive kit changes on that sort of scale.
Yes, but asking for buffs without knowing if the champion needs it or not isnt healthy imo. Feedback, like what i and many others have supplied during various sejuani threads, is constructive discusion and criticisms. Not striaight out crying for buffs on a champion we barely know.
Theres a distinction, new players to champ calling for buffs is completely different to explaining where they are struggling.
When somebody states why they are struggling, others can assist them, and then problem solved, no need to change the champ unless something is fundamently wrong so everybody from experienced to new are struggling.
When somebody calls for buffs, theirs nothing you can do to help them, its just an extra cry onto the buff train, without anyway to revert it.
Asking for changes, even if from an inexperienced perspective can still be quite valuable to us. There's a pretty high chance the suggested changes may not be appropriate, but they do reveal a lot about a player's experience. Requests for damage buffs when we're happy with a champion's damage output are a good indication that we may not be communicating the damage being deal (through particles, tooltips, sound etc) as well as we might for example.
Building the passive of the marks into permafrost works and losing the 10% slow on autos. Currently, apprehensive, it al depends on what this new passive is. I hope its still something thematically relevant, toward her Slowing everybody to the point where they cant do much. Any ideas on what this new passive will be?
So that we, her playerbase, can make suggestions, etc. I dont want changes to be sprung on her without us at least being able to offer suggestions/changes first. Please (insert pouting puppy here)
Potentially something that taps into her mounted nature a bit, not certain on that though, very much an ongoing process the moment. One thing I'd like to avoid however is having to strip significant power away from her other abilities to add a really strong passive, given her current passive doesn't have that much power tied into it under most circumstances.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DEagleEye
Thats actually awesome, however...
Seeing as the 10% slow is being removed, could we, instead of fixing the range inidcator so that it becomes smaller, and shows the actualy range. Maybe buff the range to match the indicator? (or further) That could offset the (some of the) loss of power from the removal of her passive
Charge range (and other aspects e.g. CD) are things I'll be working closely with live design on - making something feel good and useful's easy, keeping it balanced is really important too though, particularly depending on how utility potentially gets added or shifts across the rest of her kit.
I was wondering about your option 5) More risk, more reward. Sejuani to me is a different breed of tank. I mentioned in another post about an Ice Tank in the game City of Heroes and how they were pretty much the risk vs reward tank of that game.
With 2 taunting auras and one that damaged it was hard for an Ice Tank to lose agro and easy to steal it but without an Ice tanks built in Zhoynas they would surely die to many foes, but staying in Zhoynas to long also lost aggro so it became a fun risk vs reward senerio, it was if I do it right there is no way my team dies, if I do it wrong we all die.
Progress isn't far enough along yet to talk about more risk/reward tradeoffs - testing some stuff but whether it'll work out or not's still open to debate. Please do bear in mind this very much comes into the "It would be cool if, so we should experiment and see" category, rather than the "We will do this" category, hence my vagueness.
Regarding that style of ice tank I agree there's an interesting playstyle there, though I feel that's a somewhat different, though related, identity to the one Sejuani already has established.
Sorry for the confusion here folks. What was on the PBE yesterday was the result of a couple of changed files that govern the application of Frost mixed in with Sejuani's current files, resulting in bugs and bits that didn't make sense together.
To clarify a few things:
1. As previously mentioned the tag for Permafrost will be shifting to a passive on the E, unaffected by tenacity and potentially with a slightly longer duration. Sejuani will get a new passive as a result. Whether that mark can be applied when Permafrost is on CD will depend on how that mark interacts with the rest of the kit - if there's no benefit in having the mark applied it'll be disabled, if there is it'll still be active.
2. W will definitely not be both applying that mark and gaining increased damage from it, that was the result of incompatible files being mixed. At the moment we're looking at various iterations on W, some of which apply the mark but don't gain damage from it. Will update in a while once we have something solid - this is very much a point of experimentation at the moment.
3. Sejuani's ult will remain an AOE stun when you hit a champion. We are testing a version where the auto detonation at end does not stun and instead applies a really powerful slow, which would allow us to add more power to other parts of Sejuani's kit whilst still allowing skilled plays to get as much power out of the spell as at present. As above that's part of ongoing testing rather than final and would admittedly remove some gameplay on the Sejuani players part (though also adds more counterplay). Some of the extra stuff added's been testing pretty well so it's certainly an avenue worth exploring.
When he refers to "power in other places" on her kit he could be referring to:
- scaling buffs
- more base damages
- other types of utility and hard cc
- more mobility
This sort of stuff yeah. At present Sejuani's ult has a really high success rate, even if cast haphazardly towards the enemy, which means other parts of her kit have to be weaker to compensate. By introducing a bigger difference between the good casts and mediocre casts of the ult we can potentially add some other stuff into her kit e.g. perhaps a stronger CC than just a small slow on her Q when hitting a champion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviance
Will be... can you help me understand how this tag on Permafrost works as a passive on Permafrost?
Possible options are things like:
Passive: Whenever Sejuani deals damage to an enemy with a spell or basic attack she applies a mark of X to the target that lasts for Y seconds.
Active: Permafrost as at present
OR
Passive: Whenever Sejuani deals damage to an enemy with a spell or basic attack she applies a mark of X to the target that lasts for Y seconds.
Active: Permafrost as at present. Marks cannot be applied while Permafrost is on CD.
OR
Passive: Whenever Sejuani damages an enemy with a basic attack, Arctic Assault or Glacial Prison she applies a mark of X that lasts for Y sconds.
Active: Permafrost as at present.
Etc. Depends on what tests best and what happens, or doesn't happen, with the W.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raviance
Sounds minor except the whole catch them at distance and then with the use of the passive popping Permafrost. Will a passive feeding Permafrost still exist to make these long range plays? If not how do we use what was one of the games greatest long range initiation combos in the game?
This sounds like it may impact my play style in a large way.
Edit: ty for answering questions before things are set in stone. I know its burned Riot on a larger scale before, but we appreciate the interaction.
Oh, btw could you see if Ironstylus can give us anything on the visual side of the rework?
It's still planned for the ult to apply the mark from Permafrost, so the R to E combo will work as before. As with anything it's possible that might change, though I'm not aware of any issues that would require it at the moment.
Regarding possible visual changes/tweaks I spoke to Ironstylus the other day and he sounded keen to chat here once we had something we could talk about (no ETA on that yet though sorry).
Looking for Sejuani Feedback
My experience is that the majority of players asking for sejuani buffs have either
1) Never played her
OR
2) Rarely played her, low amount of games with her
Really, play the champ, play her for a while till you actually learn her, before commentating on whats weak or not...your comments are just gotta end up, more likely or not, ruining a perfectly good champ because you dont know how to play them
Sejuani has unusual scaling for a tank. Now that health is more relatively gold-efficient than other stats, she can stack 4k health without instantly blowing up every fight. This is new. Further, an overfed Sejuani does a *lot* of damage.
On the other hand, her damage against a tanky team usually falls off. She has to get to the carries or she's rather lackluster; Liandry's Torment is the very best way to build around this pitfal.
However, the power curve can potentially be a bit abusive. Sunfire + Warmog's essentially makes Sejuani something like a pre-nerf Atmog's Sion.
The flip side is that at level one, and generally any time she's underfed, she's uniquely squishy for a tank, having no steroids or shields at all.
One option would be to give her innate tankiness in some small amount on some skill, perhaps W, and then shave off some health scaling. Not a ton, maybe +20 or 30 armor or MR at 5, and 1.5 or 1.75 instead of 2 health scaling; I don't know. The point being that now AP outscales health on W if you want damage, and a Sejuani who builds tanky will actually be choosing tankiness over damage, while still scaling a comfortably good amount on the damage side for it.
If you don't automatically get *too much* damage per health, then buying squishy isn't as suicidal, and building health isn't quite as steamrollingly powerful. The idea is that when you pay for free resists and give up a bit of health scaling, the worst case doesn't instantly blow up, and the best case has more variety (and should either be equally strong, or maybe slightly weaker - Sejuani is rocking 53% or so win rate now. She's *good*, maybe incoming FotM at this rate, I don't know for sure).
Unless you somehow give her some other way to stay on them, and E isn't enough since she has no way to burn someone down fast enough.
You basically have to give her more offense if you take this away. The complaint on Sej has always been that she is either not tanky enough or doesn't have enough offense, and possibly/probably both. Her slows are what kept her from being used less than Karma. Taking one away seems like the exact opposite of what you should do.
Theres a distinction, new players to champ calling for buffs is completely different to explaining where they are struggling.
When somebody states why they are struggling, others can assist them, and then problem solved, no need to change the champ unless something is fundamently wrong so everybody from experienced to new are struggling.
When somebody calls for buffs, theirs nothing you can do to help them, its just an extra cry onto the buff train, without anyway to revert it.
So that we, her playerbase, can make suggestions, etc. I dont want changes to be sprung on her without us at least being able to offer suggestions/changes first. Please (insert pouting puppy here)
Seeing as the 10% slow is being removed, could we, instead of fixing the range inidcator so that it becomes smaller, and shows the actualy range. Maybe buff the range to match the indicator? (or further) That could offset the (some of the) loss of power from the removal of her passive
I was wondering about your option 5) More risk, more reward. Sejuani to me is a different breed of tank. I mentioned in another post about an Ice Tank in the game City of Heroes and how they were pretty much the risk vs reward tank of that game.
With 2 taunting auras and one that damaged it was hard for an Ice Tank to lose agro and easy to steal it but without an Ice tanks built in Zhoynas they would surely die to many foes, but staying in Zhoynas to long also lost aggro so it became a fun risk vs reward senerio, it was if I do it right there is no way my team dies, if I do it wrong we all die.
Regarding that style of ice tank I agree there's an interesting playstyle there, though I feel that's a somewhat different, though related, identity to the one Sejuani already has established.
To clarify a few things:
1. As previously mentioned the tag for Permafrost will be shifting to a passive on the E, unaffected by tenacity and potentially with a slightly longer duration. Sejuani will get a new passive as a result. Whether that mark can be applied when Permafrost is on CD will depend on how that mark interacts with the rest of the kit - if there's no benefit in having the mark applied it'll be disabled, if there is it'll still be active.
2. W will definitely not be both applying that mark and gaining increased damage from it, that was the result of incompatible files being mixed. At the moment we're looking at various iterations on W, some of which apply the mark but don't gain damage from it. Will update in a while once we have something solid - this is very much a point of experimentation at the moment.
3. Sejuani's ult will remain an AOE stun when you hit a champion. We are testing a version where the auto detonation at end does not stun and instead applies a really powerful slow, which would allow us to add more power to other parts of Sejuani's kit whilst still allowing skilled plays to get as much power out of the spell as at present. As above that's part of ongoing testing rather than final and would admittedly remove some gameplay on the Sejuani players part (though also adds more counterplay). Some of the extra stuff added's been testing pretty well so it's certainly an avenue worth exploring.
- scaling buffs
- more base damages
- other types of utility and hard cc
- more mobility
Passive: Whenever Sejuani deals damage to an enemy with a spell or basic attack she applies a mark of X to the target that lasts for Y seconds.
Active: Permafrost as at present
OR
Passive: Whenever Sejuani deals damage to an enemy with a spell or basic attack she applies a mark of X to the target that lasts for Y seconds.
Active: Permafrost as at present. Marks cannot be applied while Permafrost is on CD.
OR
Passive: Whenever Sejuani damages an enemy with a basic attack, Arctic Assault or Glacial Prison she applies a mark of X that lasts for Y sconds.
Active: Permafrost as at present.
Etc. Depends on what tests best and what happens, or doesn't happen, with the W.
This sounds like it may impact my play style in a large way.
Edit: ty for answering questions before things are set in stone. I know its burned Riot on a larger scale before, but we appreciate the interaction.
Oh, btw could you see if Ironstylus can give us anything on the visual side of the rework?
Regarding possible visual changes/tweaks I spoke to Ironstylus the other day and he sounded keen to chat here once we had something we could talk about (no ETA on that yet though sorry).