I realize that I will receive a great deal of backlash from the neckbeard/mouth breathing community that primarily frequents GD for this, but I didn't realize that your idea of "badass" was a barbie doll, cookie cutter female body with a bad ass head on it.
Before I get too far into this post, I should point out that I am referring specifically to Vi (although, this has been an ongoing problem that you (riot) has claimed to be addressing), and how she looks exactly like every other female champion ever released, save for the fact that she has her name tattooed on her face and p!nk hair.
Let me start by pointing out all of the flaws that are inherent in this poorly designed 'badass' female champion. I don't know if you've really noticed (I mean, you designed her, you probably should have), but she is wearing enormous metal power gauntlets. This wouldn't normally be a problem, except for the fact that the aforementioned neckbeards and mouth breathers who are now raging at this post have more muscular arms than Vi, and all they do with their arms is play league of legends, as well as performing one other activity that doesn't require a great deal of strength--probably while looking at the varied and well thought out female champions that you release daily.
I would like to move on from her arms now, that are featured on every female champion that you've ever released, and point out that she is wearing a corset, which is smashing her intestines, stomach, and lungs into her waist, which is similar to the waist that Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen were born with. This wouldn't really be a problem either, except for the fact that Vi is describe as someone who enjoys walking, and not having the upper half of her body collapsing in on itself if she stands too quickly. I was under the impression that Vi was a warrior of sorts, or perhaps even an enforcer, who described her enemies as just another wall to be punched through. I was such a fool.
Moving on from her grapefruit, I mean waist, I would like to move on to the design point that confused me the most. While it is not necessarily a flaw, it is moderately confusing as to why you would make Vi's ass cheeks visible from the front of her splash art. I mean, I guess I can see what you were going for, because that is one bad ass.
If anyone has read this far, which would be genuinely surprising, they might think I am a feminazi, homosexual, or white knight, but I would like to point out that, as a heterosexual male, I, too, enjoy looking at women. In fact, I actually prefer athletic, slimmer women to curvacious voluptuous women. But holy ****, can we please get something other than a thinner Marilyn Monroe with accessory x, hair y, please? How could you, Riot, fail so badly in your character design that a fish with MAMMARIES, a spider, and a power-glove wearing badass from Piltover are the exact same character with marginally different faces, hair, and weapons, aesthetically?
As a company, you've made a lot of really strange decisions lately. I was a happily paying customer for quite a while, and I'm sure you can see that I've spent a great deal of money on the game. But the fact that you can't seem to actually deliver on your promises (diversifying female champion design being just one of many) is making me not only discouraged, but less willing to actually spend money on your game.
TL;DR section: Your badass female wears a corset, rather than armor, has the same arms found on literally every other female you have ever designed, has a thinner waist and larger hips than any living human being, and, in general, lacks any quality other than her face, hair, and weapon that even differentiate her or make her more badass than any other female champion you have ever released. Please fire whoever thinks copy/paste is cool.
Edit: I would also like to point out that I do not actually believe that this is necessarily the fault of the artist, who did an excellent job on her face/hair and arguably clothing (thematically speaking).
Well, this thread is unlikely to get a Riot response given its caustic nature, but hopefully they are still watching this kind of argument for the kernels of good feedback after the first wave of accolades they were given when most everyone in any camp agreed that Vi's base model and attitude were cool.
...
I'll respond, but I agree with the fact that the thread's beginning doesn't have the most positive tone. I normally don't respond to negativity, but I have some thoughts here. Most of the other comments are fairly positive, so I'll address you rather than the original points and some others I've seen. Thanks for being calm and positive bee tee dubs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhadamant
I sort of disagree with the basic assumption in the thread, which is that one needs to be muscular to be 'badass'.
Maybe it's a differing definition of 'badass'. I don't know. As far as a stylised character in a game goes, she certainly doesn't look like she lacks ways to clobber seven bells out of someone.
Quickedit: Also totally holding out for 'Full Metal Vi' skin.
This is an interesting point.
Whilst a muscular lady would probably be default badass, not all badass ladies have to be muscular. With the case of Vi, yes, as I've said, we could've added some bulk, but that's such a subtle change on the geometry level that it's mostly unnoticeable unless you're at model viewer level, and, as you might know from playing the game, we aren't. We're not FPS, we're RTS. The way that Vi's gauntlets are positioned isn't really helped in any way by bulking her up. I like the Calhoon reference from Wreck it Ralph, I think she's an awesome design, and made me think a lot of Vi when I saw the movie, in a good way. However, maybe it's just me, but Vi's youth I feel takes precedence over bulk, and I don't think the youth aspect is served too well by excessive bulk. Thick/thin contrast is what's used here. I think she's fine in that regard. Again, for our camera, for our game, such a subtle geo tweak wouldn't be noticeable and we'd be doing such an adjustment for our own artistic satisfaction rather than the ultimate goal, game readability and clarity for our camera.
I've also said this, more musculature and bulked up anatomy would better suited for a character that's really going to show it off, rather than a character who's primary reads obstruct any added anatomy we might want to add. Better to spend the time and utilize the real estate on a character where you're actually going to notice.. Sejuani would be a good example.
We've learned an interesting tidbit as we've made over a hundred champions. There are different levels of stylization that fit for different character tiers. Female stylization tends to be in the zone where style, anatomy, etc can be pushed. That doesn't mean we limit body-types, we admittedly need more, but if you historically look at a lot of champions, the females are served by more conventional "realistic" body types, the males less so, the humanoids even less, the yordles are super stylized, and the creatures are crazy-go-nuts. If we were to break down female body stylization it might go something like: Athletic female, standard female, voluptuous female, heroic female, brutish female. Examples: Akali, Diana, Miss Fortune, Leona, ______. You might notice the blank. We really don't have the latter, or anything really in it's realm. We have male hulks like Mundo or Scion, but nothing analogous in our females. If I were to throw Vi into one of those areas it'd probably be somewhere between athletic and standard, on the young side. Calhoon would probably be heroic. Mind you that's a very, very, generalized breakdown.
All that said, badass ladies are not always going to be muscular. If they're a harrier of sorts they'll be athletic. If they're tanky they might be more heroic. There was no real intent to stick Vi into a particular slot, she just evolved into her space, that's usually how good character design goes. You don't try to design for the type, you design and the type evolves. Vi could be pushed and pulled here and there but that's splitting hairs I feel. If we make a barbaric Monster Hunter type female then by all means we probably want something closer to brutish and more heavilly stylized. Certain tropes have been tagged by the team which would be ripe for this treatment. Depending on role however, the standard may prevail and clothing, weapon, and sources of power might swap.
Make no mistake, I've had my hand in clawing for us to make more distinct body types, but even when I work on something, as I recently did, it was a better choice to show agility rather than raw muscle because of the role. If we design by role and by what's best for the character, we achieve variety so long as we imagine broadly inside of that role. That's where I feel we should focus our efforts. Not for making an effort to find space for something particular, but for letting a character's development dictate our visual problem solving. Believe me, I've had an eagle's eye on opportunities where we can vary body types, though I haven't as of yet personally worked on anything to ground-breaking.
For future reference, try phrasing and creating threads that push the positive nature of the discussion. I don't fall into the habit of addressing negativity, but I've made an exception here.
Okay, I wasn't going to bother with the thread because of OP's tone, but now I feel I have to comment on a couple thing you brought up. Akali does not have an normal body type. She has a very slim body type with disproportionately large breasts. This actually has the effect of making her look unusually voluptuous for her body type. The normal or average woman does not look like that.
Diana? I'm a huge fan of her design, but her body is not athletic for what she does. She looks like she could maybe be a soccer player with those thighs/quads, but she has no real arm or ab definition. For someone who charges into battle wearing armor and wielding a heavy blade that's kind of unusual. I really like her design, but I don't think we can call it athletic.
Miss Fortune. Voluptuous. Check.
Leona. Heroic. I'll give you that, but only kind of. That's less body type and more armor, and the armor is close-fitting cloth in odd places, which dims the heroic look. Also, check her Valkyrie skin and note her similar lack of muscle definition. Her arms are practically twiggy. Contrast her armor with the attached image breakdown of Aveline from DAII. There is a significant, practical difference in how they handle it, and I don't think theirs suffers as regards design. Know that I say this considering Leona and Diana as standouts and give you tremendous credit for them, but saying they fill the athletic and heroic body types only works if we apply the standard relative to other LoL champions.
I think the issue isn't that badass ladies have to be muscular, but that almost none of the female champions have shown any muscle definition, even where it makes sense, and if any champion were to have arm definition it would be the badass bruiser wielding enormous gauntlets. She's does not. It's a bit of a disappointment. You say it wouldn't work in game because you're playing with size contrasts. Could this visual element have been worked into the splash instead, then? There are many characters whose splashes have minor visual inconsistencies with their in-game model. Why does the contrast in the legs seem to be thin quads and big butt? Her glutes would be developed, yes, but relative to her her quads and arms...well, that neither of the others are to similar extent creates a certain image and suggestion, and it's not really one of athleticism.
This isn't fixating on a certain body-type as a requirement of being a badass. It's a recognition of the lack of features of a specific sort on female champions and, similarly, body types with these features. Now we have a character who could have been taken in that direction and fit well with but was instead left in the same physical category of the other female champions we've seen recently when it was suggested she would be different. It rankles just a bit.
Disclaimer: Adore Vi's design otherwise and in spite of. It think it's very well done. Her character, moves and personality do make her badass and I will own her and lane her impractically with Cait.
Demographic note: Young adult male who just bought Slay Belle Katarina because he's weak. (Also, thought the knives were snazzy and the reindeer antlers and rosy nose [which should really be rosier] were cute.) Really, though, was sad she was the one woman dressed up and the only one dressed provocatively. Where's my Snow Angel Morgana?
Note: It's late. I typed this while tired and don't feel like going over this again in the morning, so apologies it structurally and thematically it suffers.
Just so we're clear on something. The changes in definition, muscle mass or any bulking of a character amounts to pixels of difference in-game. Tuning bodies to a place where there's any noticeable difference between them means a pretty drastic proportional change and unless the character design warrants it, most changes in the female form, despite in reality making the difference between a ballerina and a barbarian, has very little impact in game when we're dealing with an base female form of general variety. Even the types of frames I've listed are what we're generalizing by putting them into those categories.
Also, you've pointed me to a reference that is a) a high rez model b) is in a first person shooter presentation c) has enough detail to choke a character in our game with the amount of full-fill it would have. That's apples to oranges. That's referencing anatomy that can't even be physically represented in champion models in the game.
If I'm reading this correctly, the reason we don't have a 'brutish female' is because you guys aren't into creating diversity for the sake of creating diversity. You let the character develop into what feels right. Which is totally valid.
It just sucks that you guys seem to be stuck in this trope were all females are either yordle or slim young woman with above average breasts. You may see 4 different generalizations of females, but all four of the female examples you listed (Akali, Diana, Miss Fortune, Leona) can comfortably fit under "slim young woman."
Vi seemed like a perfect time to expand your female body type dimensions. Or Nami, or even Elise. All characters with completely different personalities and unique background, ideas and stories, and they all have the same: big boobs big butt slim waist. If you haven't been able to find body diversity from these past female champions then I don't see any body diversity in the near future unless you guys happen to tap into the extreme (like female giant or something, and even then it would be only 1 female out of like 40)
On that note, here's some instances of champions where we could have been more experimental I feel. This is not to say I am dissatisfied with the work our team has done, but here's where I think we could have done better given each unique case:
Ahri - Could've been actually more Voluptuous
Diana- More stylized.
Elise - Possibly spider-centaur thing.
Evelynn - Something a little more otherworldly than straps.
Karma - A bit more thickness in extremities
Leona - Thicker.
Sejuani - More barbaric.
Sivir - More heroic and muscular.
Syndra - I'm actually fine with the body type, but we could have been more clever in her theme I feel. Something structurally significant.
Zyra - Hybrid plant thing. Giant tulip from the waste down, lady from the waste up, mayhaps? I dunno, it's 4am and I'm spitballing.
And re: eve in particular: Since she is eventually slated for a rework, does this mean you'll be pushing to get away from the strap spam "dress" she has?
We don't want to kill the flavor, we just want the cake to look better.
Totally agree with you on this one. I've never understood the lack of a curvier lady on the field, especially with a mage. I would've liked to have seen Syndra as a heavier set woman - If I had her abilities, I'd be the size of a house.
Never having to physically reach for something again?, hello window to weight gain.
Yeah, I think Syndra could have possibly gone a bit more other worldly. We did that with Xerath. At first he was called "The Chained Mage" and was literally.. a dude in chains. Booooooring. So, I said, well would they stuff some dude in a coffin to bury him, maybe a magical coffin that he could bust out of but that had some sort of magical magic to still sorta contain him? Thus the he became broken iron maiden of death thing.
Why don't you follow through!? As a wanna-be artist it's painful sometimes seeing these cookie cutter bodies on female champions. If you are aware of these things then why don't they go through? does someone else stop you and make adjustments to make them "marketable"?
Nidalee is great in that aspect because her body is much different than other champions. Every difference in physical features adds something unique to the characters.. I know it doesn't bother everyone but LoL deserves a great cast.
I may very well be following through on a few of the champions listed.
@Riot: "Badass" female design
Before I get too far into this post, I should point out that I am referring specifically to Vi (although, this has been an ongoing problem that you (riot) has claimed to be addressing), and how she looks exactly like every other female champion ever released, save for the fact that she has her name tattooed on her face and p!nk hair.
Let me start by pointing out all of the flaws that are inherent in this poorly designed 'badass' female champion. I don't know if you've really noticed (I mean, you designed her, you probably should have), but she is wearing enormous metal power gauntlets. This wouldn't normally be a problem, except for the fact that the aforementioned neckbeards and mouth breathers who are now raging at this post have more muscular arms than Vi, and all they do with their arms is play league of legends, as well as performing one other activity that doesn't require a great deal of strength--probably while looking at the varied and well thought out female champions that you release daily.
I would like to move on from her arms now, that are featured on every female champion that you've ever released, and point out that she is wearing a corset, which is smashing her intestines, stomach, and lungs into her waist, which is similar to the waist that Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen were born with. This wouldn't really be a problem either, except for the fact that Vi is describe as someone who enjoys walking, and not having the upper half of her body collapsing in on itself if she stands too quickly. I was under the impression that Vi was a warrior of sorts, or perhaps even an enforcer, who described her enemies as just another wall to be punched through. I was such a fool.
Moving on from her grapefruit, I mean waist, I would like to move on to the design point that confused me the most. While it is not necessarily a flaw, it is moderately confusing as to why you would make Vi's ass cheeks visible from the front of her splash art. I mean, I guess I can see what you were going for, because that is one bad ass.
If anyone has read this far, which would be genuinely surprising, they might think I am a feminazi, homosexual, or white knight, but I would like to point out that, as a heterosexual male, I, too, enjoy looking at women. In fact, I actually prefer athletic, slimmer women to curvacious voluptuous women. But holy ****, can we please get something other than a thinner Marilyn Monroe with accessory x, hair y, please? How could you, Riot, fail so badly in your character design that a fish with MAMMARIES, a spider, and a power-glove wearing badass from Piltover are the exact same character with marginally different faces, hair, and weapons, aesthetically?
As a company, you've made a lot of really strange decisions lately. I was a happily paying customer for quite a while, and I'm sure you can see that I've spent a great deal of money on the game. But the fact that you can't seem to actually deliver on your promises (diversifying female champion design being just one of many) is making me not only discouraged, but less willing to actually spend money on your game.
TL;DR section: Your badass female wears a corset, rather than armor, has the same arms found on literally every other female you have ever designed, has a thinner waist and larger hips than any living human being, and, in general, lacks any quality other than her face, hair, and weapon that even differentiate her or make her more badass than any other female champion you have ever released. Please fire whoever thinks copy/paste is cool.
Edit: I would also like to point out that I do not actually believe that this is necessarily the fault of the artist, who did an excellent job on her face/hair and arguably clothing (thematically speaking).
...
Maybe it's a differing definition of 'badass'. I don't know. As far as a stylised character in a game goes, she certainly doesn't look like she lacks ways to clobber seven bells out of someone.
Quickedit: Also totally holding out for 'Full Metal Vi' skin.
Whilst a muscular lady would probably be default badass, not all badass ladies have to be muscular. With the case of Vi, yes, as I've said, we could've added some bulk, but that's such a subtle change on the geometry level that it's mostly unnoticeable unless you're at model viewer level, and, as you might know from playing the game, we aren't. We're not FPS, we're RTS. The way that Vi's gauntlets are positioned isn't really helped in any way by bulking her up. I like the Calhoon reference from Wreck it Ralph, I think she's an awesome design, and made me think a lot of Vi when I saw the movie, in a good way. However, maybe it's just me, but Vi's youth I feel takes precedence over bulk, and I don't think the youth aspect is served too well by excessive bulk. Thick/thin contrast is what's used here. I think she's fine in that regard. Again, for our camera, for our game, such a subtle geo tweak wouldn't be noticeable and we'd be doing such an adjustment for our own artistic satisfaction rather than the ultimate goal, game readability and clarity for our camera.
I've also said this, more musculature and bulked up anatomy would better suited for a character that's really going to show it off, rather than a character who's primary reads obstruct any added anatomy we might want to add. Better to spend the time and utilize the real estate on a character where you're actually going to notice.. Sejuani would be a good example.
We've learned an interesting tidbit as we've made over a hundred champions. There are different levels of stylization that fit for different character tiers. Female stylization tends to be in the zone where style, anatomy, etc can be pushed. That doesn't mean we limit body-types, we admittedly need more, but if you historically look at a lot of champions, the females are served by more conventional "realistic" body types, the males less so, the humanoids even less, the yordles are super stylized, and the creatures are crazy-go-nuts. If we were to break down female body stylization it might go something like: Athletic female, standard female, voluptuous female, heroic female, brutish female. Examples: Akali, Diana, Miss Fortune, Leona, ______. You might notice the blank. We really don't have the latter, or anything really in it's realm. We have male hulks like Mundo or Scion, but nothing analogous in our females. If I were to throw Vi into one of those areas it'd probably be somewhere between athletic and standard, on the young side. Calhoon would probably be heroic. Mind you that's a very, very, generalized breakdown.
All that said, badass ladies are not always going to be muscular. If they're a harrier of sorts they'll be athletic. If they're tanky they might be more heroic. There was no real intent to stick Vi into a particular slot, she just evolved into her space, that's usually how good character design goes. You don't try to design for the type, you design and the type evolves. Vi could be pushed and pulled here and there but that's splitting hairs I feel. If we make a barbaric Monster Hunter type female then by all means we probably want something closer to brutish and more heavilly stylized. Certain tropes have been tagged by the team which would be ripe for this treatment. Depending on role however, the standard may prevail and clothing, weapon, and sources of power might swap.
Make no mistake, I've had my hand in clawing for us to make more distinct body types, but even when I work on something, as I recently did, it was a better choice to show agility rather than raw muscle because of the role. If we design by role and by what's best for the character, we achieve variety so long as we imagine broadly inside of that role. That's where I feel we should focus our efforts. Not for making an effort to find space for something particular, but for letting a character's development dictate our visual problem solving. Believe me, I've had an eagle's eye on opportunities where we can vary body types, though I haven't as of yet personally worked on anything to ground-breaking.
For future reference, try phrasing and creating threads that push the positive nature of the discussion. I don't fall into the habit of addressing negativity, but I've made an exception here.
Diana? I'm a huge fan of her design, but her body is not athletic for what she does. She looks like she could maybe be a soccer player with those thighs/quads, but she has no real arm or ab definition. For someone who charges into battle wearing armor and wielding a heavy blade that's kind of unusual. I really like her design, but I don't think we can call it athletic.
Miss Fortune. Voluptuous. Check.
Leona. Heroic. I'll give you that, but only kind of. That's less body type and more armor, and the armor is close-fitting cloth in odd places, which dims the heroic look. Also, check her Valkyrie skin and note her similar lack of muscle definition. Her arms are practically twiggy. Contrast her armor with the attached image breakdown of Aveline from DAII. There is a significant, practical difference in how they handle it, and I don't think theirs suffers as regards design. Know that I say this considering Leona and Diana as standouts and give you tremendous credit for them, but saying they fill the athletic and heroic body types only works if we apply the standard relative to other LoL champions.
I think the issue isn't that badass ladies have to be muscular, but that almost none of the female champions have shown any muscle definition, even where it makes sense, and if any champion were to have arm definition it would be the badass bruiser wielding enormous gauntlets. She's does not. It's a bit of a disappointment. You say it wouldn't work in game because you're playing with size contrasts. Could this visual element have been worked into the splash instead, then? There are many characters whose splashes have minor visual inconsistencies with their in-game model. Why does the contrast in the legs seem to be thin quads and big butt? Her glutes would be developed, yes, but relative to her her quads and arms...well, that neither of the others are to similar extent creates a certain image and suggestion, and it's not really one of athleticism.
This isn't fixating on a certain body-type as a requirement of being a badass. It's a recognition of the lack of features of a specific sort on female champions and, similarly, body types with these features. Now we have a character who could have been taken in that direction and fit well with but was instead left in the same physical category of the other female champions we've seen recently when it was suggested she would be different. It rankles just a bit.
Disclaimer: Adore Vi's design otherwise and in spite of. It think it's very well done. Her character, moves and personality do make her badass and I will own her and lane her impractically with Cait.
Demographic note: Young adult male who just bought Slay Belle Katarina because he's weak. (Also, thought the knives were snazzy and the reindeer antlers and rosy nose [which should really be rosier] were cute.) Really, though, was sad she was the one woman dressed up and the only one dressed provocatively. Where's my Snow Angel Morgana?
Note: It's late. I typed this while tired and don't feel like going over this again in the morning, so apologies it structurally and thematically it suffers.
Also, you've pointed me to a reference that is a) a high rez model b) is in a first person shooter presentation c) has enough detail to choke a character in our game with the amount of full-fill it would have. That's apples to oranges. That's referencing anatomy that can't even be physically represented in champion models in the game.
It just sucks that you guys seem to be stuck in this trope were all females are either yordle or slim young woman with above average breasts. You may see 4 different generalizations of females, but all four of the female examples you listed (Akali, Diana, Miss Fortune, Leona) can comfortably fit under "slim young woman."
Vi seemed like a perfect time to expand your female body type dimensions. Or Nami, or even Elise. All characters with completely different personalities and unique background, ideas and stories, and they all have the same: big boobs big butt slim waist. If you haven't been able to find body diversity from these past female champions then I don't see any body diversity in the near future unless you guys happen to tap into the extreme (like female giant or something, and even then it would be only 1 female out of like 40)
Ahri - Could've been actually more Voluptuous
Diana- More stylized.
Elise - Possibly spider-centaur thing.
Evelynn - Something a little more otherworldly than straps.
Karma - A bit more thickness in extremities
Leona - Thicker.
Sejuani - More barbaric.
Sivir - More heroic and muscular.
Syndra - I'm actually fine with the body type, but we could have been more clever in her theme I feel. Something structurally significant.
Zyra - Hybrid plant thing. Giant tulip from the waste down, lady from the waste up, mayhaps? I dunno, it's 4am and I'm spitballing.
Like.. potatoes, toilet paper, ruthless killer birds with an affinity for girls in armor, GO!
Never having to physically reach for something again?, hello window to weight gain.
Here, have a treat...
Nidalee is great in that aspect because her body is much different than other champions. Every difference in physical features adds something unique to the characters.. I know it doesn't bother everyone but LoL deserves a great cast.
You'll have to wait and see who in particular.