Riot; If I showed you that your Trynd remake was bad, would you change it?

  • I've posted these thoughts many times, but over the course of many replies in many threads. I also haven't really been active on the LoL forums recently thanks to the bug where you can't login to post (and also laziness due to giving up hope a little). I'm back and I'm going to do my best to stop this from being a wall of text that you guys don't want to read. I would rather you read the whole post and downvote than not read the whole post and upvote, in all honestly.

    Now, onto the topic at hand, Trynd is in a bad spot. He has been since his remake. This is even moreso for my playstyle of Trynd which I'm sure 99% of you have either forgotten by now, or just plain weren't here for. It was AP Trynd. I know this is going to draw a lot of people straight to that angry little red thumb down the bottom, but there's honestly no use hiding it. If it makes you feel any better as reader, I'm not just here on AP Trynd's behalf. AD Trynd has it hard too.

    I'm just going to go balls deep and say it outright: The Trynd remake was bad. He lost synergy in his kit, he became less fun and less active, and in the same breath made him less reliable (when the changes were done to apparently make him more reliable). I'm not just pulling information out of my ass, I can back this up with facts and evidence, and I will.

    Let's start with his passive/Q (I bunch them together because they basically got swapped). Previously, his passive gave him crit chance based on hp and his Q gave him AD/Crit damage with stacks. The synergy this had was that when you got stacks on Q, you knew your damage increased by a linear amount; you knew exactly how much more your auto attack and spin would do. You could account for this and use it to harass early game. Also, gaining crit chance with how low hp you are means you gain stacks faster when you are low hp, which means you gain more opportunities to heal when you are low hp. This makes sense, doesn't it? Lower hp = Bigger chance to crit = Bigger heals.

    After the remake: His passive gives him crit chance based on his "stacks", yet it still requires him to crit to stack effectively. Wait so, he need crit chance to get his crit chance steroid? Yeap. The lack of Synergy is strong in this one. The only other champion I can think of that does this is Volibear, except he only needs 3 auto attacks to get his attack speed buff and it stacks much faster (25%/50%/75%) and reliably. On top of this design flaw, we look at his reliable damage in lane. Now when Trynd is in lane he relies on chance to deal damage. With max fury he gets crit chance, rather than AD, so when you harass in lane, you are effectively "Crossing your fingers" and hoping for a crit to win the trade. Also, you gain bonus AD when you're low hp, which means your spin and auto attacks deal reliably more damage when you are low hp. Who in their right mind ever uses spin for damage when they are low hp? Not even in late game, you save it to get away after you ult, especially with the cooldown increase.

    We're still not done with Q. That's right, there's more. It's cooldown is now so long that you can't use Q to heal, surviving for a bit longer, before you ult, then Q again. To be honest, this hurts AP Trynd more, because lategame AD Trynd won't survive that much longer with just 1 Q, but it's still a huge problem for AD Trynd pre-30 minutes. The addition of a flat AD bonus to his Q makes trynd so much less active. You have less to think about and he truly moves that much closer to becoming just a "right click champion"

    Let's skip straight to his spin, because the W nerfs were necessary and/or neglibile. Pre-remake his spin had an ok base damage, low-ish cooldown, dealt magic damage and it scaled with 0.5 Total AD. What did this mean? He had a decent damaging ability early game. Now Trynd's more so have to use E to get into range for auto attacks, as the damage on it is so low and the cooldown is so high, that you are only putting yourself at a higher risk to get ganked by the jungler if you spin over them/behind them to deal it's (very mediocre) damage. The cooldown increase made him much more susceptible to jungle ganks, but that's the least of his problems. Also, he's basically become Riven since his spin was changed to physical; stack armor and you win vs Trynd. (This hurt me more than anything else. I played him like an AP Carry, an AP carry can't do physical damage. You're not doing your job if you deal physical damage)l

    "But how do we fix this? If you think Riot's remake was so bad, you'd better have some good ideas yourself..", and I'm pretty sure I do! I will show a couple of my fellows Tryndamere players (they play him AD, unlike myself, so their opinions won't be biased) these changes and ask their opinions, and in the meantime I want you to judge my thoughts.

    Minimal changes:
    Bloodlust:
    - Cooldown reduced from 12/12/12/12/12 to 13/12/11/10/9
    - Base heal decreased from 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70 + 0.5 / 0.95 / 1.4 / 1.85 / 2.3 per 1 fury consumed to 25 / 35 / 45 / 55 / 65 + 0.45 / 0.90 / 1.3 / 1.75 / 2.2 per 1 fury consumed
    Spinning Slash:
    - Base damage increased from 70/100/130/160/190 to 20/70/120/170/220
    - AD Ratio changed to 0.5 total AD from 1.2 Bonus AD
    - Damage type changed to magic

    How does this address his problems?:
    By reducing the cooldown on Q, Trynd's can effectively Q-ult-Q combo again, this leaves more room for skilled players to time their abilities better, rather than everyone having to do the exact same ult-Q (notreallyacombo) combo. Decreasing the base heal prevents Trynd from snowballing in lane by just outsustaining. The numbers may need to be tweaked, but I've done the math and I'm pretty happy with the resulting balance.

    Spinning Slash is basically reverted, except the cooldown increase. In it's current state it's so boring to use. By increasing changing the damage type, you can't just stack armor and take no damage from Trynd in lane (Thank you, Shen). Riven can get away with being 100% physical because she is so lane dominant, with high damage, mobility, utility (CC) and shields.

    What I think should really happen:
    Battle Fury:
    - Now gives 5% crit chance per 10% missing health, with 5% base crit chance.
    Bloodlust:
    - Cooldown reduced from 12/12/12/12/12 to 13/12/11/10/9
    - Max fury now 80 (note, this also means smaller heals with max fury)
    - Now gives 3/6/9/12/15 Attack Damage + 1.5 per 5 fury generated
    Spinning Slash:
    - Base damage increased from 70/100/130/160/190 to 20/70/120/170/220
    - AD Ratio changed to 0.5 total AD from 1.2 Bonus AD
    - Damage type changed to magic
    OR
    - Base damage increased from 70/100/130/160/190 to 50/100/150/200/250
    - AD Ratio changed to 1.0 Bonus AD from 1.2 Bonus AD
    - Damage type changed to magic
    Undying Rage:
    - Now gives 40/60/80 fury when activated.
    - Fury gained by Undying Rage reduced by 50% if cast whilst hard CC'd.
    - New passive: Gives Trynd 10/15/20% Critical Strike Damage
    - Passive now doubled when Undying Rage is active


    How does this address his problems?
    In these changes I've tackled every problem; his lack of synergy, his (slightly) boring playstyle (due to being less active and having less uses for his abilities) and I've added an obvious counter to him. Hard CC is meant to counter all champions, if Trynd is going to get significant buffs such as these, then he needs a more obvious weakness; one that he can share with other champions. By reducing the instant fury gain, not only are you decreasing his ability to deal damage, but you're decreasing his heal. So he has to stay and fight you with weakened damage, or heal with a smaller heal.

    His fury is so much easier to read for both the enemy and the person playing Trynd. 100 fury was just an arbitrary number used because it looked clean. 80 is much easier to work with as you don't have to work as hard to figure out the bonus you are getting from the fury. Also, it's a simple number nerf for Trynd without adjusting all the values at once.

    I've done the math on all these changes and I am very satisfied. I will link this thread to all the other Trynd players I know for their opinions. Please feel free to post your own opinions here, but I would like for you to read the thread before doing so (if nothing else just read the changes and the TL;DR).

    TL;DR: I hate these things, but I've thrown a wall of text at you, so I guess you deserve one. Trynd's remake was bad. He lost all Synergy, multiple uses of his abilities, combos, he's less fun and active and he's not a decent pick in today's lineup. These are the changes I would recommend for to fix these problems.

    Thanks,
    Norak.

    [EDIT] The proposed ideas that are in bold are changes that I have made to the previous ideas that I had, reasons are the following.
    I reduced the bonus AD gained from Trynd's Q to make way to the changes made to his ultimate.
    Tryndamere was always the "crit king", adding up to a whopping 36% Critical Strike damage at level 9, just from his Q. This was too strong and encouraged some Trynd players to start with full crit damage runes and brawlers gloves, hoping to get a lucky crit and 1-shot their opponent in laning. By keeping the Critical Damage and putting it on his ultimate, not only does he start getting the crit damage later on in the game, he is limited to his amazing crits during his ultimate. This also gives Trynd players a real reason to put ranks into their ultimate.
    Change to ulimate, courtesy of MarineRevenge, changed by myself.
  • A little shorter on time right now, but I will agree there's lower synergy than there should be - I'd strike that to my biggest point of problem with the kit...well, outside of "melee carries as a role"

    Synergy is tricky because synergy is fun and intuitive, but if you overdo it, it removes decisions and creates facerolling. I don't think Trynd is at risk here, just something to remember when analyzing how much synergy a character has.

    Good post.
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    Originally Posted by Fomorian27 View Post
    Two points: What do you think in particular about the suggestion to reverse the bonus ad from passive and bonus crit chance from q? Why was the change made in the first place? I actually wasn't here when trynd remake was done but it makes a lot more sense to me in the former way than in the latter.

    Second point: According to xypherous, katarina meets the criteria for manaless champion, but just barely. Mostly it's just a nostalgia thing. If katarina is on the edge of needing to be manaless, then I think trynd is definitely there as well. Is reverting him back to mana'd champ completely out of the question? I daresay it'd be a hell of a lot easier to balance. From what I understand manaless champions have this tendency to be either extremely weak or extremely faceroll. So how about it?
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    I'll answer both of these:

    We changed to crit damage from crit chance because Trynd's lane was about throwing dice against the enemy and hitting an early-game crit with just his passive. Fighting either as or against that removes much of the success players have from their own hands and puts it into a dice-roll, especially when crit multipliers are so much more devastating early game.

    Second, I do not like ranged manlaess champions, but I'm fine with melee being manaless more often, as melee can be a cost. Especially on a melee carry, I feel this cost can be significant on its own.

    Katarina would have had mana if I wasn't sure it would have been a point players wouldn't have ripped us apart on. I still think she should have mana.