I don't know why this item was removed. As far as I'm concerned, it was the only item I ever built for MR. Now, I'm torn between something that gives you Mana + HP, and something that gives you Attack Damage.
FoN was a solid MR item that scaled great with all tanks. I struggle even building MR anymore because I feel like there's more important things to get rather than Banshee's or Scimitar.
If anyone has any tips on what they build for MR in S3, they'd greatly be appreciated, because right now, I'm having a hard time playing any tanks against heavy AP teams.
Tl;dr: Bring back FoN or a substitute. Tell me what you build for MR.
Edit: Downvotes for sharing an opinion and asking a question... GD is so kind.
So we've had some good feedback from Xypherous regarding the removal of FoN.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous
Sure - I can take a stab at this.
The magic resistance option for tanks currently are:
Roughly half of the items in this pool build out of a Negatron Cloak (Abyssal / Visage / Veil) while the other half build out of Null Magic (Runic, Crucible, Shadows)
There isn't quite a concept as AD Tank as anyone with this classification turns out to be a fighter more often than not.
The movement speed options for tanks currently are the same as most other characters in the game, by intent:
Wraith Collar
Alacrity Enchantment
Jungle Tanks additional get two additional options, due to the fact that Golem Soul grants Tenacity and can thus sub out Mercury Treads for additional options:
Swiftness Boots
Mobility Boots
As for HP/5 - that statistic has been admittedly unsupported as a late-game statistic - mostly because we raised Strength of Spirit a tier up - This change hasn't been as effective as I'd actually liked it to have been for support end-game HP/5 without mid-game HP/5 and it's something that I'd want to take a look at in the future.
The reason for removing FoN are as follows - here are the typical cases you'd purchase FoN:
1. You need MR - and you need it now.
However - why are you paying 1900 for an additional Null-Magic Mantle's worth of MR over Negatron Cloak? This meant that the best MR option was to go double Negatron Cloak or Aegis + Negatron Cloak. Considering that Aegis was cost-efficient by itself in terms of statistic strength and that the lone Negatron Cloak could always be upgraded to Abyssals - this meant that optimal MR was always going to include Negatron Cloak sitting in your inventory without a build.
2. You need movement speed somehow on your tank character
However, again, why are you paying 1900 for a bunch of HP/5 and Magic Resistance when you need something for *speed* in a current game. This simply impacts casters negatively - because if tanks are balanced around always having an additional 76 MR for their movement speed options - almost every source of magic damage needs to be absurd (or conversely, there cannot be other movement speed options)
Speed being attached to a primary resistance counter-item is always going to be awkward - if you need movement speed ubiquitously - unless you fight the perfect composition, you are always basically screwing yourself if this is your primary movement speed source.
3. You prize HP/5 as a statistic.
This is really where the crux of the main argument lies. If you are a player who thinks highly of HP/5 as a statistic - then Force of Nature made sense because that is the primary function Force of Nature did well - otherwise, if you were actually optimizing MR - you built twin Aegis and a Negatron Cloak (which would turn into Abyssal).
However, HP/5 is a very *poor* statistic coupled with burst mitigation and movement speed. One is a set of statistics for primary initiators - the other is a set of statistics for dedicated siegers - Force of Nature was suboptimal unless broken with additional sources of Health (such as Warmog's Armor, for example) - However, this particular pairing is (as many people have pointed out in terms of what champion they miss Force of Nature on) a dedicated Bruiser/Fighter path - one that we don't really particularly need / want to support given how durability focused those characters can get.
Both the Kage's upgrades service different tanks for the purposes of initiating fights - the combined effect of movement speed, long range slows and having a large portion of the item cost negated by how early it fits into your build makes Twin Shadows fairly powerful when used well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous
No doubt - but we chose to favor the path that most tanks would have moderate income streams rather assume they would have high income streams due to the nature of the tank role. We basically optimized their items around flexible mid-tier items rather than assume a high gold baseline and that they would hit 6 items. We figured that, in the vast majority of games, tanks should be building piecemeal to react to their situation - not merely opting for a static build-path that discounts who / what the enemy is. This meant favoring smaller items rather than slot-efficiency for the most part, because you have to factor in what the opponent is rushing.
Watching how the AP mid is doing and deciding what your primary mitigation path is going to be is tantamount. Bulwark, for example, is very effective against high AP characters - but pretty ineffective against mages who rushed penetration
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous
We nerfed it, removed some bonuses and then nerfed it again once everything turned out to be unkillable and lightning fast - then we nerfed it again. Sejuani / Hecarim essentially became unkillable machines of death that could never take any damage and couldn't be stopped or evaded.
Basically, the fall-out of that was - a large MR item that was single-slot *had* to be MR-inefficient to actually work in our game, otherwise that single item would either have to be so expensive as to be the gold cost of two items (4200'ish - which is incidentally, how Scimitar's final pricing came about) or inefficient in that a portion of it was consumed some kind of unique passive, hence Bulwark.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xypherous
It's more than that - it's about sacrificing entire tiers of other itemization that could exist - for the sake of a niche item that is good some of the time. FoN was strangling other itemization options that could exist because of how awkward and powerful the stats were on a single item.
Having a fallback "swiss-army" knife for tanks that got progressively more niche the higher ELO you got in exchange was not worth not being able to have or make additional MS/MR or a strong Spirit Visage / Anti-AoE item. Twin Shadows, Alacrity, Bulwark, upgraded Spirit Visage, etc - all could not exist in the same environment that Force of Nature would exist in - as the stacked potential of each one of these would have been assuredly abusive - and when toned down to prevent the abuse case - don't really serve any of their core purposes.
Roughly half of the items in this pool build out of a Negatron Cloak (Abyssal / Visage / Veil) while the other half build out of Null Magic (Runic, Crucible, Shadows)
There isn't quite a concept as AD Tank as anyone with this classification turns out to be a fighter more often than not.
The movement speed options for tanks currently are the same as most other characters in the game, by intent:
Wraith Collar
Alacrity Enchantment
Jungle Tanks additional get two additional options, due to the fact that Golem Soul grants Tenacity and can thus sub out Mercury Treads for additional options:
Swiftness Boots
Mobility Boots
As for HP/5 - that statistic has been admittedly unsupported as a late-game statistic - mostly because we raised Strength of Spirit a tier up - This change hasn't been as effective as I'd actually liked it to have been for support end-game HP/5 without mid-game HP/5 and it's something that I'd want to take a look at in the future.
The reason for removing FoN are as follows - here are the typical cases you'd purchase FoN:
1. You need MR - and you need it now.
However - why are you paying 1900 for an additional Null-Magic Mantle's worth of MR over Negatron Cloak? This meant that the best MR option was to go double Negatron Cloak or Aegis + Negatron Cloak. Considering that Aegis was cost-efficient by itself in terms of statistic strength and that the lone Negatron Cloak could always be upgraded to Abyssals - this meant that optimal MR was always going to include Negatron Cloak sitting in your inventory without a build.
2. You need movement speed somehow on your tank character
However, again, why are you paying 1900 for a bunch of HP/5 and Magic Resistance when you need something for *speed* in a current game. This simply impacts casters negatively - because if tanks are balanced around always having an additional 76 MR for their movement speed options - almost every source of magic damage needs to be absurd (or conversely, there cannot be other movement speed options)
Speed being attached to a primary resistance counter-item is always going to be awkward - if you need movement speed ubiquitously - unless you fight the perfect composition, you are always basically screwing yourself if this is your primary movement speed source.
3. You prize HP/5 as a statistic.
This is really where the crux of the main argument lies. If you are a player who thinks highly of HP/5 as a statistic - then Force of Nature made sense because that is the primary function Force of Nature did well - otherwise, if you were actually optimizing MR - you built twin Aegis and a Negatron Cloak (which would turn into Abyssal).
However, HP/5 is a very *poor* statistic coupled with burst mitigation and movement speed. One is a set of statistics for primary initiators - the other is a set of statistics for dedicated siegers - Force of Nature was suboptimal unless broken with additional sources of Health (such as Warmog's Armor, for example) - However, this particular pairing is (as many people have pointed out in terms of what champion they miss Force of Nature on) a dedicated Bruiser/Fighter path - one that we don't really particularly need / want to support given how durability focused those characters can get.
Quote:
It's a ****ty abyssal scepter with two situational slows and **** stats.
Both the Kage's upgrades service different tanks for the purposes of initiating fights - the combined effect of movement speed, long range slows and having a large portion of the item cost negated by how early it fits into your build makes Twin Shadows fairly powerful when used well.
To be fair, in a late-game situation, saving the item slot is invaluable.
No doubt - but we chose to favor the path that most tanks would have moderate income streams rather assume they would have high income streams due to the nature of the tank role. We basically optimized their items around flexible mid-tier items rather than assume a high gold baseline and that they would hit 6 items. We figured that, in the vast majority of games, tanks should be building piecemeal to react to their situation - not merely opting for a static build-path that discounts who / what the enemy is. This meant favoring smaller items rather than slot-efficiency for the most part, because you have to factor in what the opponent is rushing.
Watching how the AP mid is doing and deciding what your primary mitigation path is going to be is tantamount. Bulwark, for example, is very effective against high AP characters - but pretty ineffective against mages who rushed penetration
So what if the stats don't really mesh together, people bought it because it worked with the champion. That's all that should matter.
No, it doesn't - not when one of the primary statistic is a stat that is valued across *all* characters (movement speed).
When an item favors a particular character in a class but also contains a ubiquitous statistic that no characters in that class can easily itemize for - you create odd swings where some characters are simply faster for no reason other than the item is awkwardly statted for other characters.
If you look at the current movement speed options (Shadows / Alacrity / Swiftness / Mobility) - they are ubiquitous and universal enough to be applied across most tanks - and that most tanks have at least one option they can choose to opt into high movement speed.
How is removing the option improving the game though? Wouldn't it make sense to leave it in? I guess I just don't understand why it was necessary to remove it. If a tank is doing very well, they should have the items available to take advantage of that just as much as the rest of the roles, right?
You typically have to balance things around their maximum abusive potential - rather than their minimum abuse potential. Which means that, for example, the Alacrity Enchantment or Swiftness upgrades can't exist in the power level that they are currently at.
By having such statistics on an item that was only good if you prize high regeneration, you unnecessarily degrade the power level on every other item that shares statistics in that category or else the stacked case becomes abusive. Then, when we inevitably nerf the abuse case - the entire spectrum crashes as a result.
Quote:
What the hell kind of tank "looks" for movement speed? That's a weak reason right there! We get FoN for the MR and the HP5! The movement speed is just a neat bonus! Who the hell decides to get FoN for it's movement speed bonus???
This is *exactly* the problem with FoN. Generally, you will find many camps on FoN, each of which doesn't care about 1 out of the 3 statistics on the item.
Wouldn't it be possible to get a new item added in with at least the same MR the FoN had.. i feel like currently all of the options give way less MR, unless i am missing something.
Probably not - this is because, as a baseline, we rescaled magic resistance to how much it should cost and we retuned gold premiums to be a more acceptable level.
Essentially, old FoN looks amazing in the context of S3 itemization mostly because every single tier 3 item in S2 looks amazing in the context of S3 itemization - it's got hugely inflated gold premiums on the final upgrade.
The high gold premiums essentially choke-out the ability for people to build reactively to their opponents unless a perfect mid-tier item existed for their particular character because any two piece item you could build was strictly gold inefficient compared to one tier 3 item. A tier 3 item gave nearly 50% additional statistic to gold ratio than a tier 2 item.
Quote:
CALLED IT, I CALLED IT.
i'VE ALREADY STARTED DOWNVOTED THREADS ABOUT UTILITY TREE, 4.5% MS QUINTS, ALACRITY/SWIFTNESS, ZEPHYR IRELIA
AND NOW I GOT A RED TO CONFIRM ALACRITY SWIFTNESS IS TOO STRONG
Runic Bulwark can't exist in the same environment as Force of Nature.
Upgraded Spirit Visage can't exist in the same environment as Force of Nature.
And yes, Swiftness or Alacrity probably can't exist in the same environment as Force of Nature.
Since each of these items are meant to synergize and provide better build options and counter-build options against certain team comps - I would say that generally, outside of late game HP/5 - I'd rather live without it than have each of these three or four other item niches be unsupported. FoN strangled itemization because it lumps so many desirable qualities into an item that is only good on a niche audience because no one audience wanted every single statistic concurrently.
By taking a step back and breaking it piecemeal into other items - we've created many more options for supports/fighters/mages in terms of their itemization as well as had the space to create other tank/initiation itemization.
I will fully admit that we've missed the *late* game health regeneration for the tank class because of vastly over-estimating the effect that Strength of Spirit would have had, as I've said before.
But we just want to know if we can get a high MR item again. Right now its pretty much 50MR on any single MR item max. MR prices got buffed, Mpen and ARpen got changed in a way that buffs it(that is why rune stats were altered for these things) so in the end mages come out stronger. Mr is still kind of tough to get.
Pen Mages in S2 had, when optimized - 48 magic penetration and 46% magic pen.
Mages in s3 have a maximum of 38 magic penetration and 40% magic pen, with the formula reversed.
So, while the penetration changes makes it feel like penetration is stronger for mages against MR, in reality, mages got something like a 2-3% damage bump - which we've hit some other ways by reducing the total ability power possible on a slot-by-slot basis. (Deathcap, for example, had it's AP coefficient reduced from 30% to 25% and provides less AP on its own.)
Additionally, for tanks with huge innate MR steroids (like Rammus, for example) - their magic resistance shell actually becomes a lot harder to "burst" through with penetration - the penetration changes along with the flat penetration available means that if you can crack 200 MR, you will be far more durable than you were before in that period. (This is only really relevant to Singed/Rammus/Leona, to be fair - as most other characters have to try really hard to get above 200 MR).
Lastly, there is a simple wish that I have when I play this game. One singular goal that, when achieved, brings me more joy than any other objective in this game. More joy than victory, more joy than a huge KDA. One -true- calling; nay, a need! An OBSESSION!
Gotta go fast.
Swiftness/Mobility + Alacrity/Homeguard/Furor are the intended 'high-speed' builds for Tank Junglers - as the Golem Soul provides them the tenacity they need to avoid being locked out for long period fights (and also burst mitigation.)
You may of course, opt out of Golem Soul by grabbing Mercury Treads and selling Spirit Stone early - but your speed options should mostly come down to whether you are going for high speed boots or not.
If you're having speed difficulties, I heartily recommend that you prioritize Tier 3 enchantments or trying out some of the other boot types - they mesh much better now than before with the other options that you have.
Quote:
But... But... Singed...
I will say that Strength of Spirit was the one thing that never really materialized as helping out Singed as much as it should have - I over-estimated the impact this would have on his regeneration, mostly because traditionally in S1, Strength of Spirit would probably be more accurately titled 'Strength of Singed.'
I wonder why strength of spirit would be pushed as the gateway to a stat. I never found it very appealing when it was good, just powerful, and I'm not sure why I would enjoy myself more if it were good again.
The problem of supporting HP/5 in large quantities is that you pretty much invalidate the laning phase when HP/5 is powerful early on and you get into situations where high regeneration essentially nullifies most of the effectiveness that some characters have in the mid-game as well.
Our solution to this was to tie major sources of HP/5 to other statistics that scaled much more naturally as the game went on (Health/Mana/Level) rather than support it innately as a statistic - it hasn't really been as effective on live as it was internally.
Quote:
golem soul is a jungler only item. You want to talk about wasted stats? Golem is nothing but a lot of wasted stats.
it is as you said, a jungle item. If it had something like hp or mr instead of jungle damage and built out of ruby or negatron, It would be infinitely more useful.
Are we talking about the same Spirit of the Ancient Golem here? The thing with 500 Health?
Ill use wukong for example. Other team is running a double AP comp. Our jungler says that he will build bulwark. So what does that leave me?
Double Aegis in S2 was powerful in the same way that Double Bulwark is incredibly powerful against Double AP in S3. Both holders of the item get the effects of the aura and the base statistics.
If you and your jungle are the two-front lines against double AP - this is completely viable.
Quote:
So then why is Flask a ward and 5 Health Pots ok? thats 1050Hp of regen right there.
This is actually one of the things we're looking into right now. We're currently dissatisfied with how powerful this start is - we're watching it closely in the hopes that it isn't as effective as it is on first glance - but it's on our list of impending changes if it keeps trending towards being out of line.
Quote:
I think every stat on FoN syncs well with each other! You got the three things tanks love. MR, HP5, and movement speed to amplify their initiating ability. Movement speed to help stick on the enemy AD carry!
Let's look at why you'd want FoN:
1. I want high MR because their AP carry is doing well. Thus I want movement speed to stick onto.. the enemy AD Carry?
2. I want high HP/5 because we are sieging - so I get stronger initiation powers - but the counter to sieging *is* to have extremely powerful initiate.
3. I want movement speed to stick onto their AD carry - thus I want high.. magic resistance to counter the AD Carry's physical damage?
Force of Nature
FoN was a solid MR item that scaled great with all tanks. I struggle even building MR anymore because I feel like there's more important things to get rather than Banshee's or Scimitar.
If anyone has any tips on what they build for MR in S3, they'd greatly be appreciated, because right now, I'm having a hard time playing any tanks against heavy AP teams.
Tl;dr: Bring back FoN or a substitute. Tell me what you build for MR.
Edit: Downvotes for sharing an opinion and asking a question... GD is so kind.
So we've had some good feedback from Xypherous regarding the removal of FoN.
The magic resistance option for tanks currently are:
Runic Bulwark
Spirit Visage
Banshee's Veil
Mikael's Crucible
AP Tanks also have: Abyssal Scepter, Twin Shadows
Roughly half of the items in this pool build out of a Negatron Cloak (Abyssal / Visage / Veil) while the other half build out of Null Magic (Runic, Crucible, Shadows)
There isn't quite a concept as AD Tank as anyone with this classification turns out to be a fighter more often than not.
The movement speed options for tanks currently are the same as most other characters in the game, by intent:
Wraith Collar
Alacrity Enchantment
Jungle Tanks additional get two additional options, due to the fact that Golem Soul grants Tenacity and can thus sub out Mercury Treads for additional options:
Swiftness Boots
Mobility Boots
As for HP/5 - that statistic has been admittedly unsupported as a late-game statistic - mostly because we raised Strength of Spirit a tier up - This change hasn't been as effective as I'd actually liked it to have been for support end-game HP/5 without mid-game HP/5 and it's something that I'd want to take a look at in the future.
The reason for removing FoN are as follows - here are the typical cases you'd purchase FoN:
1. You need MR - and you need it now.
However - why are you paying 1900 for an additional Null-Magic Mantle's worth of MR over Negatron Cloak? This meant that the best MR option was to go double Negatron Cloak or Aegis + Negatron Cloak. Considering that Aegis was cost-efficient by itself in terms of statistic strength and that the lone Negatron Cloak could always be upgraded to Abyssals - this meant that optimal MR was always going to include Negatron Cloak sitting in your inventory without a build.
2. You need movement speed somehow on your tank character
However, again, why are you paying 1900 for a bunch of HP/5 and Magic Resistance when you need something for *speed* in a current game. This simply impacts casters negatively - because if tanks are balanced around always having an additional 76 MR for their movement speed options - almost every source of magic damage needs to be absurd (or conversely, there cannot be other movement speed options)
Speed being attached to a primary resistance counter-item is always going to be awkward - if you need movement speed ubiquitously - unless you fight the perfect composition, you are always basically screwing yourself if this is your primary movement speed source.
3. You prize HP/5 as a statistic.
This is really where the crux of the main argument lies. If you are a player who thinks highly of HP/5 as a statistic - then Force of Nature made sense because that is the primary function Force of Nature did well - otherwise, if you were actually optimizing MR - you built twin Aegis and a Negatron Cloak (which would turn into Abyssal).
However, HP/5 is a very *poor* statistic coupled with burst mitigation and movement speed. One is a set of statistics for primary initiators - the other is a set of statistics for dedicated siegers - Force of Nature was suboptimal unless broken with additional sources of Health (such as Warmog's Armor, for example) - However, this particular pairing is (as many people have pointed out in terms of what champion they miss Force of Nature on) a dedicated Bruiser/Fighter path - one that we don't really particularly need / want to support given how durability focused those characters can get.
Both the Kage's upgrades service different tanks for the purposes of initiating fights - the combined effect of movement speed, long range slows and having a large portion of the item cost negated by how early it fits into your build makes Twin Shadows fairly powerful when used well.
Watching how the AP mid is doing and deciding what your primary mitigation path is going to be is tantamount. Bulwark, for example, is very effective against high AP characters - but pretty ineffective against mages who rushed penetration
Basically, the fall-out of that was - a large MR item that was single-slot *had* to be MR-inefficient to actually work in our game, otherwise that single item would either have to be so expensive as to be the gold cost of two items (4200'ish - which is incidentally, how Scimitar's final pricing came about) or inefficient in that a portion of it was consumed some kind of unique passive, hence Bulwark.
Having a fallback "swiss-army" knife for tanks that got progressively more niche the higher ELO you got in exchange was not worth not being able to have or make additional MS/MR or a strong Spirit Visage / Anti-AoE item. Twin Shadows, Alacrity, Bulwark, upgraded Spirit Visage, etc - all could not exist in the same environment that Force of Nature would exist in - as the stacked potential of each one of these would have been assuredly abusive - and when toned down to prevent the abuse case - don't really serve any of their core purposes.
The magic resistance option for tanks currently are:
Runic Bulwark
Spirit Visage
Banshee's Veil
Mikael's Crucible
AP Tanks also have: Abyssal Scepter, Twin Shadows
Roughly half of the items in this pool build out of a Negatron Cloak (Abyssal / Visage / Veil) while the other half build out of Null Magic (Runic, Crucible, Shadows)
There isn't quite a concept as AD Tank as anyone with this classification turns out to be a fighter more often than not.
The movement speed options for tanks currently are the same as most other characters in the game, by intent:
Wraith Collar
Alacrity Enchantment
Jungle Tanks additional get two additional options, due to the fact that Golem Soul grants Tenacity and can thus sub out Mercury Treads for additional options:
Swiftness Boots
Mobility Boots
As for HP/5 - that statistic has been admittedly unsupported as a late-game statistic - mostly because we raised Strength of Spirit a tier up - This change hasn't been as effective as I'd actually liked it to have been for support end-game HP/5 without mid-game HP/5 and it's something that I'd want to take a look at in the future.
The reason for removing FoN are as follows - here are the typical cases you'd purchase FoN:
1. You need MR - and you need it now.
However - why are you paying 1900 for an additional Null-Magic Mantle's worth of MR over Negatron Cloak? This meant that the best MR option was to go double Negatron Cloak or Aegis + Negatron Cloak. Considering that Aegis was cost-efficient by itself in terms of statistic strength and that the lone Negatron Cloak could always be upgraded to Abyssals - this meant that optimal MR was always going to include Negatron Cloak sitting in your inventory without a build.
2. You need movement speed somehow on your tank character
However, again, why are you paying 1900 for a bunch of HP/5 and Magic Resistance when you need something for *speed* in a current game. This simply impacts casters negatively - because if tanks are balanced around always having an additional 76 MR for their movement speed options - almost every source of magic damage needs to be absurd (or conversely, there cannot be other movement speed options)
Speed being attached to a primary resistance counter-item is always going to be awkward - if you need movement speed ubiquitously - unless you fight the perfect composition, you are always basically screwing yourself if this is your primary movement speed source.
3. You prize HP/5 as a statistic.
This is really where the crux of the main argument lies. If you are a player who thinks highly of HP/5 as a statistic - then Force of Nature made sense because that is the primary function Force of Nature did well - otherwise, if you were actually optimizing MR - you built twin Aegis and a Negatron Cloak (which would turn into Abyssal).
However, HP/5 is a very *poor* statistic coupled with burst mitigation and movement speed. One is a set of statistics for primary initiators - the other is a set of statistics for dedicated siegers - Force of Nature was suboptimal unless broken with additional sources of Health (such as Warmog's Armor, for example) - However, this particular pairing is (as many people have pointed out in terms of what champion they miss Force of Nature on) a dedicated Bruiser/Fighter path - one that we don't really particularly need / want to support given how durability focused those characters can get.
Watching how the AP mid is doing and deciding what your primary mitigation path is going to be is tantamount. Bulwark, for example, is very effective against high AP characters - but pretty ineffective against mages who rushed penetration
When an item favors a particular character in a class but also contains a ubiquitous statistic that no characters in that class can easily itemize for - you create odd swings where some characters are simply faster for no reason other than the item is awkwardly statted for other characters.
If you look at the current movement speed options (Shadows / Alacrity / Swiftness / Mobility) - they are ubiquitous and universal enough to be applied across most tanks - and that most tanks have at least one option they can choose to opt into high movement speed.
By having such statistics on an item that was only good if you prize high regeneration, you unnecessarily degrade the power level on every other item that shares statistics in that category or else the stacked case becomes abusive. Then, when we inevitably nerf the abuse case - the entire spectrum crashes as a result.
Essentially, old FoN looks amazing in the context of S3 itemization mostly because every single tier 3 item in S2 looks amazing in the context of S3 itemization - it's got hugely inflated gold premiums on the final upgrade.
The high gold premiums essentially choke-out the ability for people to build reactively to their opponents unless a perfect mid-tier item existed for their particular character because any two piece item you could build was strictly gold inefficient compared to one tier 3 item. A tier 3 item gave nearly 50% additional statistic to gold ratio than a tier 2 item.
i'VE ALREADY STARTED DOWNVOTED THREADS ABOUT UTILITY TREE, 4.5% MS QUINTS, ALACRITY/SWIFTNESS, ZEPHYR IRELIA
AND NOW I GOT A RED TO CONFIRM ALACRITY SWIFTNESS IS TOO STRONG
Upgraded Spirit Visage can't exist in the same environment as Force of Nature.
And yes, Swiftness or Alacrity probably can't exist in the same environment as Force of Nature.
Since each of these items are meant to synergize and provide better build options and counter-build options against certain team comps - I would say that generally, outside of late game HP/5 - I'd rather live without it than have each of these three or four other item niches be unsupported. FoN strangled itemization because it lumps so many desirable qualities into an item that is only good on a niche audience because no one audience wanted every single statistic concurrently.
By taking a step back and breaking it piecemeal into other items - we've created many more options for supports/fighters/mages in terms of their itemization as well as had the space to create other tank/initiation itemization.
I will fully admit that we've missed the *late* game health regeneration for the tank class because of vastly over-estimating the effect that Strength of Spirit would have had, as I've said before.
Mages in s3 have a maximum of 38 magic penetration and 40% magic pen, with the formula reversed.
So, while the penetration changes makes it feel like penetration is stronger for mages against MR, in reality, mages got something like a 2-3% damage bump - which we've hit some other ways by reducing the total ability power possible on a slot-by-slot basis. (Deathcap, for example, had it's AP coefficient reduced from 30% to 25% and provides less AP on its own.)
Additionally, for tanks with huge innate MR steroids (like Rammus, for example) - their magic resistance shell actually becomes a lot harder to "burst" through with penetration - the penetration changes along with the flat penetration available means that if you can crack 200 MR, you will be far more durable than you were before in that period. (This is only really relevant to Singed/Rammus/Leona, to be fair - as most other characters have to try really hard to get above 200 MR).
Gotta go fast.
You may of course, opt out of Golem Soul by grabbing Mercury Treads and selling Spirit Stone early - but your speed options should mostly come down to whether you are going for high speed boots or not.
If you're having speed difficulties, I heartily recommend that you prioritize Tier 3 enchantments or trying out some of the other boot types - they mesh much better now than before with the other options that you have.
Our solution to this was to tie major sources of HP/5 to other statistics that scaled much more naturally as the game went on (Health/Mana/Level) rather than support it innately as a statistic - it hasn't really been as effective on live as it was internally.
it is as you said, a jungle item. If it had something like hp or mr instead of jungle damage and built out of ruby or negatron, It would be infinitely more useful.
If you and your jungle are the two-front lines against double AP - this is completely viable.
1. I want high MR because their AP carry is doing well. Thus I want movement speed to stick onto.. the enemy AD Carry?
2. I want high HP/5 because we are sieging - so I get stronger initiation powers - but the counter to sieging *is* to have extremely powerful initiate.
3. I want movement speed to stick onto their AD carry - thus I want high.. magic resistance to counter the AD Carry's physical damage?