@RIOT - A glimpse of your typical 2k game...

  • Welcome to the League of Warmogs!

    *******http://i.imgur.com/8ct62sm.png********

    This game featured a total of 7 Warmogs (I was working towards one myself but the game finally ended) bought on just about every single champion including supports.

    Most of you were around back when Heart of Gold was in the game. Some of you may not know, however, that in addition to gold generation it also came with a passive that stacked while also giving armor. At one point in time, it was not uncommon to see mid lane AP champions take two of this item. After all, the stats it offered were so desirable that it transcended roles.

    Warmogs is currently as problematic as the old Heart of Gold. As an AD main, I have found it increasingly difficult to carry games as they flesh out due to how little damage I deal if I'm not playing Vayne or Kog'Maw. Health and regeneration are just too strong right now, especially with the removal of green elixir if your kit doesn't boast some kind of percent based damage.

    Please tell me something is going to be done about Warmogs. Ranged ADs feel very weak right now, but I can't tell if it's because of how strong health and regeneration is or how hard it is to itemize attack speed.

    Edit:

    106 giants belt bought @ IEM Katowice. Just something to consider.

    http://www.esfiworld.com/iem-katowic...s-infographic/

    2nd edit:

    EG stacking Warmogs even after Riot increased the recipe cost for EU LCS

    *cough*
  • Didn't the team that built more warmogses lose?
  • Quote:
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    Originally Posted by NA Hellraiser View Post
    i'm sorry but this is literally the dumbest response that you could have brought
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    Is it? An item is claimed to be OP. The team that built more of them lost. I feel that's worth a mention.
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    Originally Posted by Detahmaio View Post
    It's really not it just means they got outplayed.
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    You can't say "here is one screenshot of evidence" and say definitively, "This means Warmogs is OP" but then say, "Well, that's just random chance that they lost."

    You can't have both. You either take this as a random screenshot, or as evidence of everything. Protip: It's a random screenshot.
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    Originally Posted by Renegade Rook View Post
    Let's look at some other stuff, Riot employee.
    Winning team: 2 champs with stuns, a flip, two slows, lots of aoe, only a couple of skill-shot moves...
    Losing team: 1 champ with stuns, couple of lameish slows, corki, all champs dependant on skillshots.
    The losing team could easily be outplayed. Their being defeated probably didn't have too much to do with warmogs.
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    That's a good analysis. If you guys want to discuss the power and balance of warmog's, you should talk about the gold cost, the item slot cost, and the benifit for those costs compared to other items. There may also be something about how useful the item is before it's fully built, but that sounds a bit harder to nail down in the comparisons. In any case, I'm sure you guys can come up with some awesome information to back up your arguments. As long as everyone is looking at the situation with a neutral eye, I will be pleased to see what comes out of this discussion.

    Edit: "item slow" to "item slot"

    Edit 2: posting in a Phreak thread!!!!
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    Originally Posted by Akimasu View Post
    I don't generally step into high level conversations, due to my relatively low rating, however I feel the popularity of Warmogs has grown quite a bit.

    http://www.lolking.net/items/3083&re...num#statistics

    According to this, over just 1 month it's grown from 4% to 8.6% popularity. I feel that this may be exasperated by the tournaments that are going on right now, but I still see an increase of 4% to 6% prior to that, while the win ratio is remaining roughly the same. It means more people are rushing it earlier, and holding the same win ratio - making it equal strength or stronger than that of items they used to build.

    Bronze is showing a steady incline from 4.5% to 8.35% as well. I'm fairly sure you have a more accurate measurement of these things, but the incline of Warmogs is fairly clear. The question is: Are you okay with the increased value on HP over other defensive stats?
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    Isn't it interesting how the perceptions and popularity of an item can change without any mechanical changes to the item? There have been changes to other items, which can affect the power of this one, but I still think it's pretty cool how important perceptions are in this game, and how quickly tournaments can change them.
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    Originally Posted by AlphariusRising View Post
    Giant's belt is 1k gold. Gives 400 HP.
    Chain vest + cloth armor is 1020 gold. Gives 55 armor.
    BC + LW allows the user to:
    Ignore 25% of your armor.
    Penetreate another 35% of the remaining (or 26.25 total, equaling 51%)
    Ignore another 10 flat.

    Level 18 Maokai has 90 base armor.

    Level 18 Maokai has 2041 HP and 90 armor.
    That is 2915 effective HP vs physical soruces
    Level 18 Maokai builds a giant's belt. 51%+10 of his armor is ignored, so he has 34 armor, and takes 74% damage from physical sources.
    The Giant's belt increased his effective HP vs physical by 540.
    Level 18 Mao builds Chain + Cloth. Which turns his 44 armor into 61. He takes 62% damage from physical sources.
    Giving him a total of 3291 effective HP vs physical.
    The 1000g of armor gives him an increase of 376 effective HP.

    At least in this one case, Health is worth more than armor against physical damage if the physical damage sources have last whisper, and they have just one person that can stack a black cleaver on you.
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    This is a good argument about how Warmog's is a good item to build in response to items the other team builds.
  • Has there been enough mention that the top 2 armor items (frozen heart and randuin's, please forgive me if these aren't the top 2) also slow the enemy attacks and/or give you CDR, mana/HP? Some of the other defensive items do more than just provide a way to soak damage, and I want to make sure that's getting a fair shake. In my low Elo games, when there is a fed Vayne, we want someone to build a frozen heart and randuin's, not everyone build warmog's.
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    Originally Posted by Nooblar View Post
    Attack speed from randuins or frozen heart will do VERY little to reduce the damage incoming from AD casters, something we've been seeing a whole lot of since the revival of the black cleaver. Sunfire + Warmogs is a staple build of many top lane champions because sunfire brings armor for the mid game, and warmogs will push their HP through the roof when things start moving towards late.

    Also, seeing Warmog's on Katarina makes me sick.
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    That's a good point about AD casters. What team comps have people come up with to deal with them? I was thinking a high CC team could help.

    My unscientific observance is that the meta for things like this goes in waves. People find something that is strong, and then people all try to use it. Then people find a counter, and now that counter is the new strong thing, until that is also unraveled.
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    Originally Posted by Akimasu View Post
    http://www.lolking.net/items/3078#statistics

    Do you know why this item has such a high win ratio? It's not so much for its power, but rather because its cost. It takes so much to make it, that you have to already be ahead to make it. Yes, it has a 58-62% win ratio, but that's because of what it takes to make. Look at any big ticket item, or late game item for some champions and you'll see this.

    This is exactly what's happening with Warmogs. While some champions rush it, the ADCs and APs who make it make it in their last item slot - Guardian Angel is probably the best example of this. Sightstone is a fairly good example of the inverse: where a game went so badly that a player couldn't upgrade it, hence why it suffers a 48% win ratio. Not because the item is weak, but rather because they couldn't finish the item.

    Runaan's Hurricane, Warmogs, Guardian Angel, are all great examples of this.

    While truly powerful items, like Runic Bulwark, and Frozen Heart are good examples of items that are simply strong and have a higher win ratio because of that.

    However, the simple win ratio alone isn't the point. The prevalence increase, while the win ratio remaining the same is. This is a rather large point, as it shows that building warmogs earlier(as higher prevalence, means it's being built more often - which generally means it's being built earlier) and is as strong, or stronger than the other items you would fill those slots with.
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    I couldn't have said it better myself.