Constructive Annie Feedback: Why Annie's Cone should remain detached (or add toggle)

  • Annie's cone (Incinerate) should be reattached because the change for consistency makes landing her W more difficult to do based on enemy position. We should at least be given the option for such a play-style. This campaign had achieved over 450 upvotes in this thread here: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...774&highlight=

    However, this thread is basically a complaint thread and a bump thread and is not constructive in its feedback to developers. I think catching developer attention on this issue is very important but I think a constructively themed thread is the way to do it.

    Here is the contents of one support ticket I submitted where I detail the reasons why I do not think Annie's cone should be reattached or at least the option of either cone control scheme:

    Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> Annie is a short range mage. To be useful in this meta of gap closers and very short team fights it is absolutely critical to be able to land max range Ws with very high consistency. She will generally have one shot to make an impact with this spell during a fight and the performance difference between hitting just one member in the front or the entire opposing team is a very very big difference. This means her control scheme is very important.

    In fact I would argue that because Annie W can have CC attached to it with her passive that it is a very deciding spell on whether she can land it on the back line of the team fight or not.

    The change to attach her cone made landing precision Ws far more of a challenge because now we must target based on our current location rather then on the location of our enemy. Rather then target the location of the opposing squishy champion we now have to constantly watch our own position as well as theirs. Other similar abilities do not work like this and here is a list:

    Malzahar will walk to the location to cast his Q and W.
    Pantheon will walk to the exact location to cast his W and R.
    Twisted Fate will walk into range to cast his R (2nd use).
    Ashe will walk into range to cast her E (hawk shot)

    These are example of how Annie W used to work, walk into range to use her W where you clicked.
    There are many more than this so if the change was due to consistency, then when will they abilities be modified? I am not saying they should be change but if the change was due to consistency then, hey, at least be consistent about it.

    Imagine an AD carry that has to move into range to auto attack. If you try and auto attack outside of your attack range your character does not move into auto attack and just sits there. In fact it puts your auto attack on its normal cooldown. This is exactly how I feel when I tried to play Annie now. Now would the designers change ad carries to work this way? I hope not, it would completely ruin the flow of gameplay for AD carries.....just like the flow of Annie is ruined with this patch.

    I just want to know why the flow of a launch champion was changed so much. And I am incredibly discouraged from playing Annie in any kind of match whatsoever visual remake or not.

    Also I am mostly campaigning for information on the design decision. Why was this changed? I do not understand the decision, unlike a nerf or a buff, this was a control change that made Annie more inconsistent. Is that was the designers wanted? Less consistent skills?

    Lastly, it is not just me that this change impacted. The forums have a high volume of dissatisfied Annie players and unlike most visual reworks I have not seen an increase in the amount of Annie players. Sadly, the change for consistency has unintendedly (or intentionally, I don't know) modified the control scheme for Annie to be much worse controls and more inconsistent. The attached cone change was absolutely not worth it based on what I can see.

    Annie was one of my very first champions I bought a skin for and I am one of many who really hate losing control functionality. Thanks for your time. </td></tr></table>

    I would like to get more conversation going about why Annie's teamfight and lane play flows much better with a reattached cone and while I totally understand that some people really enjoy the simplicity of an attached cone we should be given the option of the control scheme. The ability is very important to land correctly on as many people as possible and I would like to see the performance of Annie remain more consistent.

    I basically will not play Annie under the current control scheme and it is very saddening to me to know that. I appreciate any feedback you can give on this topic and whether you agree or disagree with anything in this post.

    Thanks for your time.


    Edit: Red response. Adding my reply to the original post:

    Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;">
    Originally Posted by IrrationalNoob View Post
    Greetings Sir Brian,

    I think Jarvan flows better but the changes did let him lose a bit of gameplay. For example you are running from top into the river being slowed by red buff, flash is down. You are moving towards the wall and want to get the flag barely over the ledge and Q to it asap to get separation from your attacker. Under the new control scheme it is important to know the max range on the skill very precisely to do this. Under the previous mechanic you could E on the ledge and you would walk in range and flag. Then you could Q to it (granted the Q and E ranges were matched with this same patch, which is a LARGE reason why Jarvan flows much better from this change). What he gained in simplicity he lost in ease to do tricky maneuvers.

    But if we are not just referring to conal skills one interesting case is Ashe hawk shot. It has a max range to it and sometimes it is used for the directional aspect and sometimes for the AOE. Her control scheme is not standardized in her controls either (She walks to be in range if you target out of her range). Regardless, I want to talk about Annie.


    Just like you feel the core gameplay about some of these characters was unplayable before this is the same way I feel about Annie now (and to a lesser extent the other characters changed). I feel like I can no longer play Annie with the current control scheme and be EFFECTIVE. As much as you have joy for now feeling there is 3 more champions that feel better for you realize that I feel the exact opposite reaction and just as strong.

    In Annie's case she is a short range mage. Area Control and Area Denial are some of her greatest potential strengths. Being able to W at a specified location away from you is core to her gameplay. She feels much worse with her short ranges as a mage not being able to click to deny an area far from her with using the W key.

    Additionally this change did NOT change Annie's whole kit this way. Annie's R still causes her to WALK toward the location to put it down. Additionally landing a max range stun on Tibbers will cause Annie To not be in Incinerate range to combo out. R and W thus are fighting each other now on the control scheme scale as they do not flow well together.

    And please do not get me wrong control scheme changes are great when they help the flow of the champion. In a previous patch you let the key that summons controllable pets control them rather then the un rebind-able previous control scheme. This added great intuitive control schemes to numerous champions (and I sometimes wonder if this change impacts your future design in controllable pets only being an ultimate)

    I feel like the change on just the conal abilities did not take into account champion flow and Annie flows much different from Jarvan Morde and Cho all of who want to be in melee range more than Annie AND HAVE A LONGER RANGE ON THEIR SKILLS. (Cho-700, Morde-700, Jarvan Flag is 830 and Q is 770 but always hits flag, Annie-625). This kind of change on an ability that is this short in comparison to many other abilities makes the change extremely apparent. And while before a player could target max range and hit an area, now they must memorize the max range on every one of these abilities to be effective as these champions or spend time looking at skillshot indicators during important team fights.

    Also I am not an Annie main, but I do like her and I move champions quite a lot. But so now what happens when I swap champions, I have to learn an entire new max range for my conal ability because now it originates from my position and I can no longer target a location. What does this do to a player that swaps from Chogath to Annie to Ashe to Morde?

    I hope you understand at least in part why I am so frustrated with the control scheme change.

    Regardless I thank you for replying to me and at least let me know you are thinking about the issue. I understand that some people really like this change as they experienced the opposite frustration of casting too far and having a delay. But I do think that it is far better to be able to appropriately combo R into W.

    While yes I would love the toggle option so I could resume area denial Annie play I completely understand if it is not implemented. Where would you put the option? How would it work for more champions? Is it worth dev resources? I get it, it takes a lot of effort. However I strongly believe a toggle option is well worth the resources as inability to control properly is THE most frustrating thing to experience. The enemy did not beat you. You and/or the game beat yourself.

    Thanks for your time and consideration.
    </td></tr></table>

    Update: This is also currently as of typing the number one thread on league subreddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...rtcast_toggle/ This thread asks for a toggle option for smartcasting which would allow more flexibility on champions. Control schemes are one of the most important things to give more options Riot.
  • Hello Sir Irrational,

    I was not involved in the decision to change the specific cone spells' targeting methods. However, I've been begging for this very change from the design team for a while. I'm glad you decided to write about this constructively, and I feel you deserve a response. These are purely my own reasons for desiring the change, and don't necessarily reflect the design teams'.

    When I cast Annie W, Morde E, or Riven R, my brain is treating it like a normal skillshot, like Ezreal Q, Nocturne Q, or Skarner E. This is because the spell:

    1. Originates from my character
    2. Travels away from my character

    Whenever these abilities would cause me to walk, it was extremely aggravating, such that I felt I couldn't play those characters. It would be like if Ezreal Q caused me to walk forward. I don't want to cast at a position, I want to cast in a direction. And that is, to me, the core mental division between players. Directional casting generally flows much more naturally.

    We made a very similar change to Jarvan E recently for the purposes of flow and quality of life.

    I personally find Anivia Q and Nidalee Q extremely frustrating to use as well, although their ranges are long enough that I generally don't misclick-move.

    But these are all tradeoffs. I can't stress this enough. All control schemes are "how can we get the most users to get the most use out of this mechanic?" I believe more players will have a better quality of play with the attached cone than the detached cone, even if that alienates those that had gotten use to the previous scheme.

    I think a user-toggle is a good idea, but we need to weigh that against other things we can do. For all the players we have--is it worth it? And how difficult is it? I don't know off the top of my head. And how ad-hoc are we willing to let it be and still ship? And should we make it configurable per move? That's extra dev time.

    So, in summary, I think this is a net gain for all the players of League of Legends, even if not everyone likes it.
  • Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;">
    Originally Posted by IrrationalNoob View Post
    How do you feel about Singed W, Brand W or some of the other numerous abilities that will have you run instead of cast at max range?
    </td></tr></table>
    The difference between these two concepts is important: cones are melee spells. Regardless of what targeting schema you use, you cannot actually cast the spells from a distance. Singed W and Brand W are clearly not.

    This means that the potential for being frustrated as a result of accidentally moving instead of casting is far, far lower. In cases where this is continually frustrating, like Jarvan, we decided to make the change. We may make more changes in the future, and we may not.

    It's the same sort of mindset that made Karthus Q and Urgot Q auto-smartcast. We needed to shepherd people into that targeting mindset or the experience would be much worse.