Okay, so this thread has expanded into a very helpful discussion about peoples thoughts and different scenarios within the new ranked system, my personal experience is negative, but I think we should let this turn into a discussion rather then a rant.
Below is my story, feel free to read on others and post your own so Riot can fix the system.
---------------------------- My Story ------------------
To start of, I just want to make it clear that I am mad. I just went 9-1 in my placement games (6-1 at 1551 preseason, then 9-1 this morning), meaning if the elo system was still visable, I'd be floating around 1620-1650.
Now lets talk about my last game, I played against an enemy team which composed of 3 people from Gold D3 (1650~), 1 person from Gold D1(1800~) and 1 person who was still in placement.
My team composed of All 1 Gold D3 (1650~), 3 Gold D5 (1580~), and me who was in placement. - We won this game against the odds, and after the game, I was placed into... Silver D1 (1450).
So with an elo of around 1620-1650, I'm matched into a pool of 1400s. (It gets better)
Now because I'm still being matched due to my elo, I'm going to have to fight people in Gold Tier every single match just to stay in Silver D1, and become positive for a chance to make it to Gold D5.
This is not fair.
But the good thing is, I'm still 1st in my Division, due to the fact there are only 2 players in my division...
TL;DR - Because of Placement I now have to compete with 1700s to stay in a pool with a skill level of 1400.
The community wants a reply.
EDIT: Just played my first match after officially being placed in a League (Silver 1) - My entire team and the entire enemy team were in Gold 1 (Best Division in Gold) - After a 60min drawn out match, we lost. So It's confirmed, I have to play 1700-1800s to get out of Silver. Worst ****ing ranked system ever
Meanwhile: The other person in my league is playing enemys from Silver 3, because he just hit level 30, he is now 1st in the league.
EDIT2: Now after my 9 win streak in placement games, I'm now on a losing streak at about 1700~ elo, and about to fall down to Silver D2 because I'm not good enough to carry Gold D1 games.
EDIT3:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yegg
Okay, so here's what's going on here...
Because you had only just finished your initial ten placement matches, the system was cautious and placed you into Silver I. This is a division that comprises a large range of MMRs, and you were right near the top. As to why it's a large range: think of slicing up a bell curve into chunks of equal volume (as we want each Silver division to be roughly equivalent in size); as you get further out on the curve, the chunks are wider in order to get the same number of players. Since your MMR was quite high, you were matched against Gold players, and the system was looking for you to consistently prove that you belong in Gold. When you started winning matches, since you were defeating Gold players you were given 30+ points per match, and you're now at 92 LP after only 3 wins. When/if you lose a match, you will lose probably 10 or fewer LP, so you're on track to make it to Gold quite quickly. You were never in any danger of falling down to Silver Division 2, as you would have to start losing against other Silver players before that would even be a possibility.
The reason why the system is hesitant to place players who've just finished their initial placement matches directly into Gold is that tier changes are permanent in the league system, so there are some extra checks and balances that must be passed in order to avoid having a bunch of players stuck at the bottom of a tier they don't belong in. We were able to be slightly less cautious with players who played a lot during the preseason because they'd already demonstrated their skill level over a longer series of games.
Hope this helped! I'll check back in this thread later to answer more questions later tonight, probably in a few hours.
I'm actually a lot more calm about this now, the initial panic set in that I was much lower then I was meant to be and was playing very hard competitive games, only to be at the same level as very low players. After a few more games I've realized that the LP distribution is the saving grace in this case, because my hidden elo is much higher then the average elo in my division, and I am consistently gaining a lot more then I lost, and i also didn't realize that it wasn't possible for me to fall to Silver D2 until I lost vs players at that level.
All in all, I think the system works, and I can understand why it was cautious to place me in Gold Tier and I'm glad its not letting people who 'luck' their way up into higher tiers.
Thank you for the explanation Yegg - I also hope this thread helps anybody who has confusion with the new leagues
EDIT4: I'm currently 16W 4L, constantly vsing 1780s-1850's (Every single player in the game other then me is this rating) and I'm at the bottom of Gold V, I feel demotivated to play when I have to consistently play at this level to only be recognized so low.
Drawing comparisons between your teammate and opponent's divisions and the hidden Elo system is not a good path to go down because there are no assurances that their current Elo is the one they were placed with, meaning you may be matched with someone who's Elo is lower than you think.
But to specifically address your concern, if your hidden Elo is higher than expected for your division, you will earn more LP for wins and lose less LP for losses. This means you will much more quickly reach your promotion and get into the higher division/tier.
We understand that some people are frustrated that they aren't in the tier they expected, but there are no longer Elo cutoffs for certain Tiers, and you cannot lose your tier once you get it. So reaching the next tier means a lot more than it ever did. Best of luck getting there again, I'm confident you can.
from the description of the leagues:
"If you fall below zero LP as a result of decay, you'll be placed into the next lowest division. If you're already in Division V of your league, you'll fall into a new league in the next tier down. This is currently the only way to get demoted to a lower tier."
Decay is the exception to the rule and only occurs in the case of serious inactivity. Few players will see this happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellioning
I think there was a MAJOR miscommunication. The only thing we've been told is that our placement would be based upon current and highest Elo and under that plan comparing our placements in regards to our pre-season Elo makes perfect sense.
In those same communications we also said that the placements would not be based on the season 2 Elo cutoffs, that those were being discarded for the promotion system. Elo bands should not be used to judge the line between tiers, that is not how leagues works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Force Of Nature
If there are no Elo cutoffs then people misplaced into their (lucky wins, etc) tier will be stuck there making it worse for the people who belong/are on the way of moving up.
The system is really confusing.
That is why the line between tiers is not a hard cutoff. Win streaks will not help you luck into a higher tier because promotion is based on where you should be, not "oh wow a win streak."
@Riot RoboLions
I think the question here causing confusion would be how high can your initial placements actually place you?
What if a player is legitimately carried through their initial placement matches, all 10 of them?
Will they get a high gold division to low/mid platinum division?; that the system will never remove them from?
(And yes I digress this would be a very rare and fluke situation, but with a playerbase this high it is bound to happen here and there)
Or would a full set of 10 wins still only place you in the high silver range?
The second question which could in itself answer the relevance of the first;
Does the matchmaking system match based on the hidden elo rating; or your placement within the division ladders?
If it disregards which division you are in for matchmaking purposes, then there really should be no concern if folks are carried through their placement games;
in this scenario; who cares if they got plat; their hidden elo is still matching them with bronze/silver eventually when their hidden MMR drops.
A 10/0 start during placement may place you in gold. But as you correctly guessed, if you aren't performing at the gold level you will be matched against opponents according to Elo so eventually you'll slip to going against silver level players. While you cannot get demoted from gold as long as you are active, you are not hurting matchmaking.
Because you had only just finished your initial ten placement matches, the system was cautious and placed you into Silver I. This is a division that comprises a large range of MMRs, and you were right near the top. As to why it's a large range: think of slicing up a bell curve into chunks of equal volume (as we want each Silver division to be roughly equivalent in size); as you get further out on the curve, the chunks are wider in order to get the same number of players. Since your MMR was quite high, you were matched against Gold players, and the system was looking for you to consistently prove that you belong in Gold. When you started winning matches, since you were defeating Gold players you were given 30+ points per match, and you're now at 92 LP after only 3 wins. When/if you lose a match, you will lose probably 10 or fewer LP, so you're on track to make it to Gold quite quickly. You were never in any danger of falling down to Silver Division 2, as you would have to start losing against other Silver players before that would even be a possibility.
The reason why the system is hesitant to place players who've just finished their iniital placement matches directly into Gold is that tier changes are permanent in the league system, so there are some extra checks and balances that must be passed in order to avoid having a bunch of players stuck at the bottom of a tier they don't belong in. We were able to be slightly less cautious with players who played a lot during the preseason because they'd already demonstrated their skill level over a longer series of games.
Hope this helped! I'll check back in this thread later to answer more questions later tonight, probably in a few hours.
Yeah well I went and won 3 then lost 2 and got demoted from silver 1 to silver 2.
Can you give me a bit of help understanding that?
You're forgetting about the two games that you lost right after being seeded into a league (during the grace period), so the overall 3-4 record was enough for a demotion in this case.
I'm in Silver 1 and my first games gave me 32-30 points, then they normalised between 10-20. But my last game i was at 92 and only got 4 points (i won) out of it. Why is it like that if it's suppose to increase when i'm in a winning streak.
You have to demonstrate that you can consistently compete at the level of other Gold players in order to qualify for a Gold Promotion Series. This is because tier promotions are permanent in the league system, so there are extra checks and balances, and your LP gains will be clamped until you pass them. I'd imagine you're quite close (1-2 wins away). Even demonstrating that you can go 50/50 against other players at your current level should qualify you in the long run.
Then can you explain what "grace period" exactly means, if it's not "we'll take it easy on you for a couple games" which is how it was explained?
The grace period is simply a number of games in which it is impossible to be demoted. During that period, wins and losses will still affect your MMR and LP as normal.
@Riot, I want an explanation - New Ranked System is flawed.
Below is my story, feel free to read on others and post your own so Riot can fix the system.
---------------------------- My Story ------------------
To start of, I just want to make it clear that I am mad. I just went 9-1 in my placement games (6-1 at 1551 preseason, then 9-1 this morning), meaning if the elo system was still visable, I'd be floating around 1620-1650.
Now lets talk about my last game, I played against an enemy team which composed of 3 people from Gold D3 (1650~), 1 person from Gold D1(1800~) and 1 person who was still in placement.
My team composed of All 1 Gold D3 (1650~), 3 Gold D5 (1580~), and me who was in placement. - We won this game against the odds, and after the game, I was placed into... Silver D1 (1450).
So with an elo of around 1620-1650, I'm matched into a pool of 1400s. (It gets better)
Now because I'm still being matched due to my elo, I'm going to have to fight people in Gold Tier every single match just to stay in Silver D1, and become positive for a chance to make it to Gold D5.
This is not fair.
But the good thing is, I'm still 1st in my Division, due to the fact there are only 2 players in my division...
TL;DR - Because of Placement I now have to compete with 1700s to stay in a pool with a skill level of 1400.
The community wants a reply.
EDIT: Just played my first match after officially being placed in a League (Silver 1) - My entire team and the entire enemy team were in Gold 1 (Best Division in Gold) - After a 60min drawn out match, we lost. So It's confirmed, I have to play 1700-1800s to get out of Silver. Worst ****ing ranked system ever
Meanwhile: The other person in my league is playing enemys from Silver 3, because he just hit level 30, he is now 1st in the league.
EDIT2: Now after my 9 win streak in placement games, I'm now on a losing streak at about 1700~ elo, and about to fall down to Silver D2 because I'm not good enough to carry Gold D1 games.
EDIT3:
Because you had only just finished your initial ten placement matches, the system was cautious and placed you into Silver I. This is a division that comprises a large range of MMRs, and you were right near the top. As to why it's a large range: think of slicing up a bell curve into chunks of equal volume (as we want each Silver division to be roughly equivalent in size); as you get further out on the curve, the chunks are wider in order to get the same number of players. Since your MMR was quite high, you were matched against Gold players, and the system was looking for you to consistently prove that you belong in Gold. When you started winning matches, since you were defeating Gold players you were given 30+ points per match, and you're now at 92 LP after only 3 wins. When/if you lose a match, you will lose probably 10 or fewer LP, so you're on track to make it to Gold quite quickly. You were never in any danger of falling down to Silver Division 2, as you would have to start losing against other Silver players before that would even be a possibility.
The reason why the system is hesitant to place players who've just finished their initial placement matches directly into Gold is that tier changes are permanent in the league system, so there are some extra checks and balances that must be passed in order to avoid having a bunch of players stuck at the bottom of a tier they don't belong in. We were able to be slightly less cautious with players who played a lot during the preseason because they'd already demonstrated their skill level over a longer series of games.
Hope this helped! I'll check back in this thread later to answer more questions later tonight, probably in a few hours.
All in all, I think the system works, and I can understand why it was cautious to place me in Gold Tier and I'm glad its not letting people who 'luck' their way up into higher tiers.
Thank you for the explanation Yegg
EDIT4: I'm currently 16W 4L, constantly vsing 1780s-1850's (Every single player in the game other then me is this rating) and I'm at the bottom of Gold V, I feel demotivated to play when I have to consistently play at this level to only be recognized so low.
But to specifically address your concern, if your hidden Elo is higher than expected for your division, you will earn more LP for wins and lose less LP for losses. This means you will much more quickly reach your promotion and get into the higher division/tier.
We understand that some people are frustrated that they aren't in the tier they expected, but there are no longer Elo cutoffs for certain Tiers, and you cannot lose your tier once you get it. So reaching the next tier means a lot more than it ever did. Best of luck getting there again, I'm confident you can.
"If you fall below zero LP as a result of decay, you'll be placed into the next lowest division. If you're already in Division V of your league, you'll fall into a new league in the next tier down. This is currently the only way to get demoted to a lower tier."
The system is really confusing.
I think the question here causing confusion would be how high can your initial placements actually place you?
What if a player is legitimately carried through their initial placement matches, all 10 of them?
Will they get a high gold division to low/mid platinum division?; that the system will never remove them from?
(And yes I digress this would be a very rare and fluke situation, but with a playerbase this high it is bound to happen here and there)
Or would a full set of 10 wins still only place you in the high silver range?
The second question which could in itself answer the relevance of the first;
Does the matchmaking system match based on the hidden elo rating; or your placement within the division ladders?
If it disregards which division you are in for matchmaking purposes, then there really should be no concern if folks are carried through their placement games;
in this scenario; who cares if they got plat; their hidden elo is still matching them with bronze/silver eventually when their hidden MMR drops.
Because you had only just finished your initial ten placement matches, the system was cautious and placed you into Silver I. This is a division that comprises a large range of MMRs, and you were right near the top. As to why it's a large range: think of slicing up a bell curve into chunks of equal volume (as we want each Silver division to be roughly equivalent in size); as you get further out on the curve, the chunks are wider in order to get the same number of players. Since your MMR was quite high, you were matched against Gold players, and the system was looking for you to consistently prove that you belong in Gold. When you started winning matches, since you were defeating Gold players you were given 30+ points per match, and you're now at 92 LP after only 3 wins. When/if you lose a match, you will lose probably 10 or fewer LP, so you're on track to make it to Gold quite quickly. You were never in any danger of falling down to Silver Division 2, as you would have to start losing against other Silver players before that would even be a possibility.
The reason why the system is hesitant to place players who've just finished their iniital placement matches directly into Gold is that tier changes are permanent in the league system, so there are some extra checks and balances that must be passed in order to avoid having a bunch of players stuck at the bottom of a tier they don't belong in. We were able to be slightly less cautious with players who played a lot during the preseason because they'd already demonstrated their skill level over a longer series of games.
Hope this helped! I'll check back in this thread later to answer more questions later tonight, probably in a few hours.
Can you give me a bit of help understanding that?
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/19346820#history