How many games must I win for promotion series? This is outrageous.. truly truly truly outrageous!
8 game win streak with last 3 games being +3 +2 +1 .... THEN -17!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOSE 1 GAME DROP FROM 98 TO 81 GG RIOT THIS SYSTEM IS BROKEN!!!!!
I am at 98 LP after winning 3 games from 92 LP....? How this fair? So I need to win TWO MORE just to get 100? Then still have to win 3/5? This is crazy!
How does this not know I ready for next league?!
Matches:
(Beat Silver III Opponent) 13-0-5 Akali
(Beat Silver IV Opponent) 10-1-9 Nidalee
(Beat Silver IV Opponent) 7-3-13 Rumble
(Beat Bronze II Opponent) 13-9-19 Twisted Fate
(Beat Silver V Opponent) 3-1-5 Katarina
(Beat Silver V Opponent) 5-0-11 LeBlanc
(Beat Bronze II Opponent) 16-2-11 Riven
I believe Yegg has explained this many times, but I'll try to explain again.
The LP clamping that happens at Division I is due to your MMR being much lower than needed to be in the next tier, as tiers earned are permanent. So in order for the system to be sure that you belong in the next tier, it'll clamp your LP gains when you are close to promotional series to make sure that you can consistently win your games and not just due to a lucky streak.
If you keep winning more than you lose (aka your MMR slowly moves up to the expected level for the next tier), the clamping will go away. Unfortunately, the current implementation makes you feel like you are closer to the promotion that you actually are, then it suddenly slaps you in the face by clamping your LP gain when you reach 90+ in Div I. They have already eased the clamping since Leagues came out and I believe Yegg and his team are working on a smoother LP gain so you can have a better gauge at how far you are from an actual promotion instead of losing more LP than you gain when the clamping happens.
To give you guys a clearer picture of this, I'll use my personal experience from this weekend.
I was 1900 seaon 2, and about 1730 in s3 when Leagues happened. I was placed in Gold Div I.
At first, I was gaining anywhere form 17-25 LP from a win and losing about the same amount unless I had a leaver on my team which made me lose less LP than usual (new system compensates for leaves). Which means that in 4-5 wins I'd be at 100 LP playing my promotional series. However, when I reached around 85 LP, I was suddenly gaining around 3 LP instead.
I agree it felt bad at the time that when I thought I only need one more win to get my promo series instead turned into possibly 5 more straight wins. I got to about 96 LP then lost a game and dropped back down to about 80, wiping a bunch of wins that I acquired. You bet I felt discouraged at the time too. But if you think about it, I was trying to permanently qualify for Plat tier. Assuming 1850 is plat, and my MMR was at 1730 when I started. After 5 wins and 2 loses, with max of 14 Elo per win and losing 11 in the ideal case, my MMR would only sitting at 1778 yet I was already at 85 LP. If I gained the same amount without the clamping I'd only need one more game to qualify for promo series, but in the old Elo system, I'd have needed (1850-1778)/14=6 straight wins and the Plat earned wouldn't even be permanent!!! (keep in mind all the values are in the absolute ideal situation too, I'd possible need more wins in reality) So it became clear to me why I was being clamping and only gaining 3 LP. It was because my MMR was too far from the expected MMR. So in order to permanently earn the Plat tier, I needed to prove myself.
After understanding that, I just kept playing, expecting to have at least 6 wins over loses for the system to no longer clamp me. However, after hovering a couple times around 90LP (losing more than gaining of course), I qualified for my series from winning one game after dropping to 85 LP. I gained 15 LP from that game, which I assumed since I was winning more than I lost, the clamping went away. I eventually went on to winning my series 3-2 now I'm in Plat Div 5. You could tell how tense I was in the last game when Sivir was 0-7 and Teemo was 0-5 and I was losing top. But no one raged and eventually we pulled through and won. It was a great game and the plat now feels well earned knowing that I won't lose it.
Hopefully this clears it up for you guys and give you a little more hope about the new system. I agree the way it's implemented right now can make you feel discouraged because it kinda gives you a false sense of hope then suddenly takes it away. But rest assured it is much better than the volatile Elo system before IMO.
So, just for my clarification when I try to explain this.
If your MMR is approximately equal your league placement, you should be seeing similar LP gain/losses (Other then the tier clamping) per game.
If your MMR is higher then your league placement, you should be seeing large win values, smaller loss values, as its trying to move you up.
If your MMR is lower then your league placement, you should be seeing low win values, high loss values, as its trying to move you down.
Roughly speaking, that is, I know there are conditions on division/tier steps.
This is roughly correct. And based on my experience the clamping is minimal if your MMR is approximately equal to your league placement, as I gained 15 LP from 85 LP after hovering around 90 LP. I'll let Yegg handle the specifics though.
@Zydion I'm not saying I have a problem with the system, but I've posted this story several places and I still haven't got an answer. There is a problem with the way your system is taking ELO in to account.
Last night I won 8 games in a row gaining 5 and 2 points respectively for my last 2 wins putting me at 97. Lost a game and dropped 17 points from 97 to 80. Played one 2 hours later and in one game instantly gained 20 points and qualify for division series.
It's like your system isn't taking in to account your ELO until you LOSE a game. In the difference of one game I went from earning 2 LP to 20 LP which isn't possible. It's something you guys need to look in to.
I'm not entirely sure on the formulas behind the scenes but it is possible that after your last 2 wins the system deemed you good enough to remove the clamping. Even though you lost one after that the clamping was already gone so you got the full amount for the win. Similar situation happened to me to where I was gaining ~3 LP but then after a couple I got 15 LP for my last match (I was also last pick in that game where everyone else was a plat, maybe that makes a difference too)
I think one big issue in regards to the feel of the system is that our Elo plays such a huge part in determining our progression rate, yet we can't see it and only realize we're getting ahead of ourselves once we've gained 3LP from a win suddenly. Maybe some sort of visual "level" that goes from left to right depending on our MMR : Div/LP?
So it'd be like this for someone with an MMR matching their current Division/LP:
This way you could leave the Elo part out of it, but at least show us that we're getting ahead of ourselves gradually, and should expect to be in the for long haul.
Y/n?
This is a great idea and I believe someone else has already suggested a similar indication or a popup box of why you gained/loss the amount of LP you did. I'm all for more indicators and I'm sure Yegg and his team are already ironing out the details for you guys.
curious how many rioters play in silver or bronze division for extensive periods of time.
I can't speak for all Rioters, but I've been in Bronze/Silver for a long time. I've played quite a few games already with the new League System and so far I really like it. Mostly because I do feel like I'm working towards a much more manageable goal. That being said, I haven't reached a series yet where I will qualify for a new tier, but it's fun working towards it, so we'll see what happens
I think one big issue in regards to the feel of the system is that our Elo plays such a huge part in determining our progression rate, yet we can't see it and only realize we're getting ahead of ourselves once we've gained 3LP from a win suddenly. Maybe some sort of visual "level" that goes from left to right depending on our MMR : Div/LP?
So it'd be like this for someone with an MMR matching their current Division/LP:
This way you could leave the Elo part out of it, but at least show us that we're getting ahead of ourselves gradually, and should expect to be in the for long haul.
Y/n?
We are considering adding an indicator like this. I'm not sure if I'll represent it as a line like you have here, but thanks for the idea
+3 +2 +1 ... -17 why riot why
8 game win streak with last 3 games being +3 +2 +1 .... THEN -17!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOSE 1 GAME DROP FROM 98 TO 81 GG RIOT THIS SYSTEM IS BROKEN!!!!!
I am at 98 LP after winning 3 games from 92 LP....? How this fair? So I need to win TWO MORE just to get 100? Then still have to win 3/5? This is crazy!
How does this not know I ready for next league?!
Matches:
(Beat Silver III Opponent) 13-0-5 Akali
(Beat Silver IV Opponent) 10-1-9 Nidalee
(Beat Silver IV Opponent) 7-3-13 Rumble
(Beat Bronze II Opponent) 13-9-19 Twisted Fate
(Beat Silver V Opponent) 3-1-5 Katarina
(Beat Silver V Opponent) 5-0-11 LeBlanc
(Beat Bronze II Opponent) 16-2-11 Riven
http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/36399758#history
The LP clamping that happens at Division I is due to your MMR being much lower than needed to be in the next tier, as tiers earned are permanent. So in order for the system to be sure that you belong in the next tier, it'll clamp your LP gains when you are close to promotional series to make sure that you can consistently win your games and not just due to a lucky streak.
If you keep winning more than you lose (aka your MMR slowly moves up to the expected level for the next tier), the clamping will go away. Unfortunately, the current implementation makes you feel like you are closer to the promotion that you actually are, then it suddenly slaps you in the face by clamping your LP gain when you reach 90+ in Div I. They have already eased the clamping since Leagues came out and I believe Yegg and his team are working on a smoother LP gain so you can have a better gauge at how far you are from an actual promotion instead of losing more LP than you gain when the clamping happens.
To give you guys a clearer picture of this, I'll use my personal experience from this weekend.
I was 1900 seaon 2, and about 1730 in s3 when Leagues happened. I was placed in Gold Div I.
At first, I was gaining anywhere form 17-25 LP from a win and losing about the same amount unless I had a leaver on my team which made me lose less LP than usual (new system compensates for leaves). Which means that in 4-5 wins I'd be at 100 LP playing my promotional series. However, when I reached around 85 LP, I was suddenly gaining around 3 LP instead.
I agree it felt bad at the time that when I thought I only need one more win to get my promo series instead turned into possibly 5 more straight wins. I got to about 96 LP then lost a game and dropped back down to about 80, wiping a bunch of wins that I acquired. You bet I felt discouraged at the time too. But if you think about it, I was trying to permanently qualify for Plat tier. Assuming 1850 is plat, and my MMR was at 1730 when I started. After 5 wins and 2 loses, with max of 14 Elo per win and losing 11 in the ideal case, my MMR would only sitting at 1778 yet I was already at 85 LP. If I gained the same amount without the clamping I'd only need one more game to qualify for promo series, but in the old Elo system, I'd have needed (1850-1778)/14=6 straight wins and the Plat earned wouldn't even be permanent!!! (keep in mind all the values are in the absolute ideal situation too, I'd possible need more wins in reality) So it became clear to me why I was being clamping and only gaining 3 LP. It was because my MMR was too far from the expected MMR. So in order to permanently earn the Plat tier, I needed to prove myself.
After understanding that, I just kept playing, expecting to have at least 6 wins over loses for the system to no longer clamp me. However, after hovering a couple times around 90LP (losing more than gaining of course), I qualified for my series from winning one game after dropping to 85 LP. I gained 15 LP from that game, which I assumed since I was winning more than I lost, the clamping went away. I eventually went on to winning my series 3-2 now I'm in Plat Div 5. You could tell how tense I was in the last game when Sivir was 0-7 and Teemo was 0-5 and I was losing top. But no one raged and eventually we pulled through and won. It was a great game and the plat now feels well earned knowing that I won't lose it.
Hopefully this clears it up for you guys and give you a little more hope about the new system. I agree the way it's implemented right now can make you feel discouraged because it kinda gives you a false sense of hope then suddenly takes it away. But rest assured it is much better than the volatile Elo system before IMO.
If your MMR is approximately equal your league placement, you should be seeing similar LP gain/losses (Other then the tier clamping) per game.
If your MMR is higher then your league placement, you should be seeing large win values, smaller loss values, as its trying to move you up.
If your MMR is lower then your league placement, you should be seeing low win values, high loss values, as its trying to move you down.
Roughly speaking, that is, I know there are conditions on division/tier steps.
Last night I won 8 games in a row gaining 5 and 2 points respectively for my last 2 wins putting me at 97. Lost a game and dropped 17 points from 97 to 80. Played one 2 hours later and in one game instantly gained 20 points and qualify for division series.
It's like your system isn't taking in to account your ELO until you LOSE a game. In the difference of one game I went from earning 2 LP to 20 LP which isn't possible. It's something you guys need to look in to.
So it'd be like this for someone with an MMR matching their current Division/LP:
(Red Zone) |-----------------||------------------| (Green Zone)
Then for someone who's MMR was too low for their current ranking:
(Red Zone) |-----||------------------------------| (Green Zone)
And finally someone who's ready to breeze through the ranks:
(Red Zone) |-------------------------------||----| (Green Zone)
-----------
This way you could leave the Elo part out of it, but at least show us that we're getting ahead of ourselves gradually, and should expect to be in the for long haul.
Y/n?
So it'd be like this for someone with an MMR matching their current Division/LP:
(Red Zone) |-----------------||------------------| (Green Zone)
Then for someone who's MMR was too low for their current ranking:
(Red Zone) |-----||------------------------------| (Green Zone)
And finally someone who's ready to breeze through the ranks:
(Red Zone) |-------------------------------||----| (Green Zone)
-----------
This way you could leave the Elo part out of it, but at least show us that we're getting ahead of ourselves gradually, and should expect to be in the for long haul.
Y/n?