@Riot: There's no reason to buy Armor or Magic resistance anymore.

  • Do you have any graphs on if you build resists and hp, and they build the 45% pen, and comparing the damage you can do to them while they are doing damage to you? The only amount of hp that matters is if it's above 0. If you get them below 0 in that time, then it doesn't matter how efficient their armor pen is, right?

    This isn't the area of stuff I work in, but your graphs are cool and I was curious for more info.

    Thanks!
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    Originally Posted by Subdue View Post
    Something like that would be pretty difficult to do because there's a number of variables that you'd have to consider. The important takeaway point from that in relation to your question though, is that in any situation where purchasing resistance would have increased your survival time long enough to pull out a won encounter, HP would have done it better.
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    I thought that resistances were worth more when you have higher HP though. The original graphs had info about health and resists, and also an assumed 45% armor pen. I would like to know the gold cost of that 45% armor pen, and the survivability that the player is giving up by spending it on that, and how effectively that plays against the health/resists.

    This is regular theorycrafting type things. We could even get info about champion X with cooldowns and stuff to find out how well they do against a Garen or something.
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    Originally Posted by 0hemgeez View Post
    I swear to god Grifdix ALWAYS opens his mouth about things he knows not of. You continually get into conversations with people, come at them condescendingly, and then pretend like you're just curious and were only asking a question.

    You come off as smug, and "all knowing" but then like to preface everything you say with...."BUT I'm just an animator". Please stop posting so much. You literally are my least favorite red on the forums.

    PS: All your downvotes mean sh*t, kids.
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    I'm sorry you feel that way. I post on these threads because I value the info that players are putting in here. We have very smart and creative players who are constantly trying to do better at this game, and that research is very valuable and interesting to me. I play tanky roles about half my games, so this stuff interested me as a player and a developer. Text does not convey tone very well, so all I can do is assure you that I have no condescending intention, and am genuinely looking for new info.
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    Originally Posted by TheManStache View Post
    @griftrix, the graphs you're asking for would indeed be interesting to see. Problem is, that largely depends on the champion and the rest of the build. Lets assume you're building full tank just for the sake of argument, and ill grab two different champs, one with high base damage one with not so high base damage. Keep in mind, neither champ should EVER be built full tank in a real game.

    Katarina has some pretty rediculous base damage. With a typical S2 tank build, katarina could easily kill any squishy before they kill her, regardless of penetration. From there she'd get the resets she needs to kill the rest of the team (assuming a low cc team).

    Now build tryndamere the exact same way. He doesn't have the AD and crit he needs to deal the massive damage he's known for. We'll even give him a pretty favorable matchup, with him 1v1ing a 3 item kogmaw (IE PD LW). That kog will easily outdamage trynd, and if this kog has lifesteal runes or perhaps a vamp sceptor, he'll do it with full HP.

    If you had a specific champ and build in mind I can math it out for you if you want
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    Yeah, this is a really good point.

    What if we went with Nautilus for resists, and MF for ADC? (I have a personal interest in this particular combo)
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    Originally Posted by Aquelarres View Post
    Frozen Heart is getting nerfs (http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/23...s-for-2-5-2013) and Guardian Angel is a toxic discussed item since forever.
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    The main point of his post was that the win rates of items on lolking does not give you much info about item power. Items that aren't completely built have lower win rates because you might not have enough gold to finish them, because you're losing. It doesn't mean the item causes you to lose.
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    Originally Posted by TheManStache View Post
    I can do the math and graphs in about 3 hours once I'm off work.

    Right off the bat though, I see nautilus losing out in a 1v1 pretty much always due to his low base damage. Even built as a bruiser, I see nautilus losing this trade to a fully built full penetration MF due to the low rations on his skills as well.

    Nautiuls came at a time when cc heavy tanky junglers were the dominant forces, and he excells in this role. His job was, and is, to lock ip enemy squishies so someone else can kill them.

    Taking that into account, we'll put him into a full on 5v5 were he's doing his job, and is built full tank (S2 tank, with a lot of resistances as well as HP) and the story MIGHT be different. Depending on the team comps really. With both teams having a 50/50 shot just based on team comp, and every teamate is doing their job properly, I can see naut tanking the enemy team long enougj for his team to kill the enemy. It all depends.

    But yeah, ill do those graphs when I get off to see what's up.
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    Oh, right... 1v1 really isn't my ideal use case. The real case is 3v2 or something. Maybe such a tanky CC character like Nautilus is a bad case. Maybe something like Olaf vs Zed would be better?
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    Originally Posted by TheManStache View Post
    So olaf is building tank while zed is DPS with full arpen? Hmm. There's a lot more variables to that match up.

    If we remove the variables and have them standing still, and using abilities whenever possible, I would probably say olaf winning the matchup due to the high base damage of his true damage and the lifesteal from his W.

    Let them juke, and assume zed baited ragnarok, thus wasting it before the fight, and zed could win it with some luck.

    As with the last one, ill math it out and give a definitive answer when I get home.
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    Ok cool. I think this is a fair top lane scenario. What I'm hoping to find out is the best opportunity cost of gold, if you are both B and can't see what he's buying with his 3k.
  • I'm sure all of you have noticed that Warmogs is gaining a lot of popularity while resistance items are falling in popularity. The simple fact is, the combination of the increased cost of resistance and the improved effectiveness of penetration has dropped the gold efficiency of armor and magic resist far below that of HP.

    To illustrate this, I've put together three graphs. In each graph, I've reduced the value of HP, Armor, and Magic Resistance into 200 gold increments for the first 3000 gold spent on defensive stats.

    Giant's Belt: 1000 gold, 400 HP - 80 HP/200 gold
    Chain Vest: 720 gold, 40 Armor - 11.11 Armor/200 gold
    Negatron Cloak: 810 gold, 45 Armor - 11.11 Armor/200 gold

    The three graphs show a comparison between:

    1. HP and either Armor or Magic Resistance
    2. HP and both Armor and Magic Resistance
    3. Hp and both Armor and Magic Resistance given 45% Penetration

    The graphs show that given only a single resistance to account for and no penetration, the most efficient use of gold is to spend most of it on resistance. However, if you account for two types of necessary resistance by halving the effectiveness of Resistance, you then find that it becomes more effective to spend 2/3 of your gold on HP. If you then account for penetration, which which is as of late very popular, the most gold efficient strategy then becomes to spend all of your gold on HP, completely forgoing Armor and Magic Resistance.

    Riot, this is a problem as it significantly reduces the choices for itemization and turns virtually all resistance items into "noob traps." The only role that can viably purchase armor or magic resistance is pure tank, and even then, it only becomes gold efficient to do so after they've spent well over 3000 gold on HP.
  • Do you have any graphs on if you build resists and hp, and they build the 45% pen, and comparing the damage you can do to them while they are doing damage to you? The only amount of hp that matters is if it's above 0. If you get them below 0 in that time, then it doesn't matter how efficient their armor pen is, right?

    This isn't the area of stuff I work in, but your graphs are cool and I was curious for more info.

    Thanks!