Dodge penalty = reward idiots, penalize people who care

  • Skipping right to it - "Queue Dodging" (or something like it) needs to be available to players. Everyone ought to be able to veto their inclusion in a randomly assembled team prior to starting the game without suffering a rating penalty. This makes sense as a principle; it isn't ARAM. Everyone on the team should have a veto button so that when that timer counts down, everyone has effectively ok'd and committed to playing the game as-is, and hasn't simply been coerced into staying with an obviously bad team by the prospect of losing 3 LP otherwise.

    It isn't hard to see why there has to be a way to avoid playing with people who instantly identify themselves as trolls- people who clearly don't care about the competitive/winning aspect of playing ranked, are trolling on purpose, act like infants, start cussing people out, use racist insults, or they're afk and end up random-selecting a champion when it's their turn. (That last one should be an automatic re-queue for EVERYONE except the person who was afk, who should get the 30 minute timer. This or similar solutions have been suggested elsewhere.)

    I was quite interested to see how this new system was going to do. I had recently started playing ranked with the goal of seeing how high I could get, and to see if it was legitimately possible to carry one's way out of the doldrums. I was making decent progress and did my best to make most team comps work but there were many games where I'd get a terrible feeling during champ select. Players cussing each other out, using racial epithets, trolling, afk... In those situations, I learned to trust my troll detector instinct and I would dodge. This cost me the ability to play a ranked game that night, but I would rather wait a whole day than play with those guys. That's a fair and acceptable penalty in my book.

    This little ranked experiment has been cut short by the introduction the new system.. a system where we are penalized for analyzing the trollishness of our teams and deciding we would rather not spend the next 30-60 minutes of our lives regretting getting into the queue to begin with.

    How can it be so hard to mitigate these problems? Why isn't there a more innovative solution for this? Further, why isn't there a "loss prevented" for when the system detects an afk person? Or a disconnected person? A 4v5 should be really easy to detect and yet there are no provisions made to protect players who care about their competitive ratings against trolls. How about a "report for trolling" or something similar (for excessive cases) after the game finishes where top Tribunal contributors can review and issue a loss prevented for the team members who had to deal with the troll?

    Instead of coming up with a solution to this problem, Riot took one away - one that players had settled on. They left us with nothing except the hope that our motivation and enjoyment of the game were enough to overcome the disappointment and frustration of getting stuck with trolls. I'm just shocked. It seems like such a thoughtless decision from a design team that tends to put a lot of thought into the game.
  • Your thread covered many topics, let’s just discuss about queue dodge for the sake of time. Please excuse my poor English

    Queue dodging is a complex problem that involves much deliberation and consideration. We have a queue dodge system with a queue dodge penalty because we need to strike a balance between the need of players who wish to play the game and those who want to dodge the game (of any reason). Why Riot not just have a “free queue dodge” system of some form? The answer to this question is simple because it is too prone to abuse.

    There is a segment of our player base that loves to queue dodge for the sake of dodging. These players would dodge a game with or without any reason. Perhaps they did it because they do not understand the implications of their actions, or perhaps they have alternative motives. We need the penalty to prevent (some) players from dodge the games repeatedly.

    Then there is another segment of our player base that will queue dodge for competitive reasons. Let’s take current ARAM game mode as an example, the ARAM mode supposed to be all random in champion selection, and by logical extension of ARAM design, there should never be any “troll pick” or “mid or feed”. In reality: ARAM games currently have one of the highest queue dodge rate. Based on this information, have you considered why that is the case? Were these queue dodgers indifferent about their games? Or they cared too much about their games, and they will, at any instance of perceived disadvantage dodge the queue? One can’t deny there is a segment of our player base that would utilize the dodge system to enhance their competitive advantage if no strong discouragement exists. We need the queue dodge penalty to keep this group of players in check.

    One group of players we also need to take into consideration are those who want to play the game. There are times when I have a perfect team and the other side queue dodged (for whatever reasons), and this really sucks for me. Now if this happens 7 times in a row, it would really make me feel bad. This is not without history, we have seen last year when the Dominion queue dodge system failed to enforce queue penalty for months, the consequences of that bug were devastating. It will take 7-8 tries before a player can successfully launch a game. Once we fixed the dodge penalty bug, the number of tries needed to launch a game dropped dramatically.

    There are many other scenarios that we can discuss in the future (regarding League Points). We designed the dodge penalty after carefully analyze the data we have gathered from years of observation. The penalty system is designed to be strong enough to discourage repeat queue dodging but it is weak enough to allow occasional queue dodge. In the end, it is all about an act of balance to improve overall player experience.
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    Originally Posted by sepetaiya View Post
    bump for justice
    I found your statement humorous in an ironic way. May the Tribunal Judges have mercy on you, because they know about justice too well.
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    Originally Posted by Gray the Grayte View Post
    By reintroducing the ELO penalty the amount of toxicity I see in hero select has gone through the roof. Everyone is so stressed and you feel trapped and powerless when the roll of the dice goes against you in terms of who your teammates are. Particularly you are utterly screwed if you get one of these guys in your promotion series that you can see is going to cause a loss yet you can't dodge or you cancel your series and lose like 40 LP.

    ...In summary hefty time penalties do the trick just fine. Having an ELO/LP penalty just causes rage and degrades the player experience dramatically as evidenced by the numerous threads complaining about it.
    There is no such thing as Elo penalty for queue dodge. The key thing players should understand is that Elo rating is not equal to LP, and queue dodge will not change one's Elo rating (by design). Elo rating is used for other purposes in League System, and it will not subject to same level of complex scenario as LP.
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    Originally Posted by Utensil View Post
    I like the idea of having people who random because of AFK in champ select forced to queue dodge in ranked. In these events specifically it is annoying because you often have people in promotional matches and they can't dodge, and the AFK person is either not there or trolling, basically inviting a loss and a dismal game because of their actions.
    I am thinking about remove that soft/hard random feature in ranked... :P