The Honor System is a wonderful... first step.

  • @ LYTE, IF YOU DO RETURN PLEASE READ THIS
    I would like to mention, I'm not trying to focus on the Tribunal accuracy. This thread is not about that at all.
    I'm trying to help reshape, in general, the community's attitude. I'm focused, not on Tribunal report accuracy, but trying to add additional features to the Tribunal and game. This is just one of my suggestions. I did read your first post, and it seemed I didn't really REALLY emphasize the real goal here. I understand it would take many manhours to increase accuracy any more than how accurate it is now.

    But like you said in your post

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    Originally Posted by Lyte
    "We're at a point in the Tribunal where we are coming up against diminishing returns. For example, let's say it takes the player behavior team 100 hours in development to bring the accuracy of the Tribunal from 80% to 90%. To actually bring the accuracy of the Tribunal from 90% to 95% is going to cost us 1000 hours. Then, to bring the accuracy of the Tribunal from 95% to 99% might cost 10,000 hours.

    We are currently at a point where Tribunal accuracy is extremely high, and false positives are extremely low. To continue optimizing these systems requires such an exponentially high ratio of hours that we are better off working on small tweaks to the Tribunal to continue small, logical optimizations; alternatively, we could just get big gains working on a new feature or system like Honor."
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    You and I are actually in agreement, but you seemed to think my focus is on something that it is not on.
    Please reply to my suggestion (which is only theoretical and was only suggested to help give you guys ideas), which is the addition of a positive report feature, if you can! <3 I think it'll help impact the game more than, or with, Honor in general, and help truly reshape the community's attitude.



    Main thread below.

    We have a Tribunal system, which I think is fundamentally flawed in that players cannot defend themselves IN the system (you will see people banned over trivial things or for literally no reason).

    This system, although indirectly, promotes the abuse of the reporting feature, as it gives players WAY too much power in deciding one's fate in the game. Although many people use it with good faith, many people use the feature to be jerks.

    I think there are two really good changes we can add to the game to combat this and increase the happiness of the general community.



    Firstly, the Tribunal system is fundamentally flawed in that players cannot "defend" themselves in the Tribunal system. I'm not even sure they are told when they are being judged by players. I believe this is unfair, as MANY MANY people, including myself have been falsely reported, and many of which have been banned because of this. There are MANY threads showcasing this.

    I believe players should be notified on when they are going to be placed in the tribunal, for how long, for what reasons, and then give that player a 24 or 48 hour time frame to write a small paragraph or two describing the event in better detail that the ingame chat box doesn't or couldn't say, describe pre and post game chat, etc etc.



    Secondly, I believe that we focus too much on NEGATIVITY. FIGHTING AGAINST IT, specifically. IMPROVING THE COMMUNITY, so to speak. I believe we should focus a tad bit less on the "I'm going to report you for xxx da da da this that and the other"

    Instead, my suggestion to Riot would be to add a POSITIVE report feature, ALONG SIDE the honor system, or simply replacing it to make the positivity feel more important and impactful, to be ruled on in the Tribunal. I believe we should mix positive and negative reports, so the Tribunal isn't just seen as this weapon against players, as soooo many players tend to view it as. If players consistently report for positivity and that player is found "Guilty" of positivity, that player can be rewarded maybe special skins, IP boosts, a special banner, access to old skins or old runes, etc etc, or simply bragging rights.

    This would help players stop viewing the Tribunal as this place to be judged and attacked by the community, a place to send "bad apples in the community" and such.

    Anyways, as always, if you have been, kick ass summoners!





    Edit:

    I forgot to mention, if anyone disagrees, please refrain from any hatred, vulgarity, immaturity or otherwise derogatory language or behavior, and simply tell me why it is you disagree, and I will try to explain why, with regards to your claim, my suggestion is the best, or one of the best, plausible for solving our little issue.

    Edit 2:

    Holy moley got Riot's attention o.o
  • It's extremely difficult (I would say impossible) to have a perfect system. Whether it's medicine (where results could decide between life or death) or surgeries (where a 60-80% success rate is considered high) or science (where a 5% false positive rate is considered standard), there is a common trend--these systems are not perfect. When you consider the actual number of correct cases the Tribunal processes everyday, you will notice that the Tribunal is more accurate than any of the above examples, and has a lower false positive rate.

    You are actually discussing two problems:
    1) Players are getting false reports and are being sent to the Tribunal. This is actually extremely unlikely for a few reasons. For example, the Tribunal already filters out false reports at the time of the report. For a player to only be sent to Tribunal by false reports that also bypass the filters... it's just extremely rare. Not impossible, but rare. We saw this system in action when one of Zileas' accounts was false-reported by premades of 4 multiple times in a row--he ended up only 20% of the way to a Tribunal case.

    2) Players that end up in Tribunal are punished when they don't deserve it. We have intentionally set the Tribunal to sustain a false positive rate lower than 1% to ensure that the system is extremely conservative--this is the current bar that the Tribunal is measured by. However, when you have 30+ million players, even an extremely low false positive rate results in a lot of errors that get posted on the forums.

    We're at a point in the Tribunal where we are coming up against diminishing returns. For example, let's say it takes the player behavior team 100 hours in development to bring the accuracy of the Tribunal from 80% to 90%. To actually bring the accuracy of the Tribunal from 90% to 95% is going to cost us 1000 hours. Then, to bring the accuracy of the Tribunal from 95% to 99% might cost 10,000 hours.

    We are currently at a point where Tribunal accuracy is extremely high, and false positives are extremely low. To continue optimizing these systems requires such an exponentially high ratio of hours that we are better off working on small tweaks to the Tribunal to continue small, logical optimizations; alternatively, we could just get big gains working on a new feature or system like Honor.

    It's impossible to create a perfect system. We're never going to have a Tribunal that never has a false positive, or accurately targets and punishes 100% of negative players.
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    Originally Posted by Dunk Lord View Post
    Was this "reporting Zileas' account" thing an experiment, or was he actually being trolled by/trolling 4 man premades lol?
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    It wasn't an experiment. He was attacked by 4-man premades several games in a row, and came over to check how the filters were working. They were.
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    Originally Posted by Cartod View Post
    This is nitpicking, but this kind of reasoning really grinds my gears.
    It's just negative and there's really no reason for it, and it just comes off to me as an excuse.
    Instead of opening your post with a positive note, you set this negative, defeatist tone right off the bat.

    Again, nitpicking, but you have to have a can-do attitude when trying to optimize systems, or nothing ever changes.

    "Stay positive!"-Lux
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    Hm, I wasn't trying to be negative--just realistic. Saying "it's impossible to build a system like the Tribunal" is defeatist. Saying, "it's impossible for systems to have 100% accuracy and 0% false positive" is different.

    As a scientist, it would be irresponsible to say otherwise--it has nothing to do with being negative! This is why scientists rarely say things like, "this study proves with 100% certainty that..." It'd be irresponsible to say such things.
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    Originally Posted by Tortferngatr View Post
    2. Lyte has gone over why this would be impractical. I do think we could get more "context" in the chat text, though.
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    I've been talking with the player behavior team and we do agree that we could provide better chat context. We're currently brainstorming a list of things we could display in chat that would better represent in-game events.
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    Originally Posted by Katarìna View Post
    Having a 90%+ conviction rate doesn't change the fact that some innocent people are going to jail, and that should be the focus of your efforts, not retaining the high conviction rate.
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    I think there might be a misunderstanding. I mentioned in the original post that the false positive rate is the #1 most important metric in the Tribunal--this means the system is optimized to prevent innocent people from being punished.

    We are not focused on the conviction rate and haven't been for 12 months.
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    Originally Posted by oPLURo View Post
    Thank you for taking the time to comment on my thread, but, if you're still watching, I do have another question.

    While I do understand your first post saying that making the tribunal any more accurate than it already is would take MANY hours, and those hours could be put to better use, my goal of the thread is not to address that "problem."

    I'm not trying to get your attention on the possible inaccuracy of the Tribunal. There will never be 100% accuracy as long as players have the power that they do have.

    What I was trying to get you to look at is trying to focus the community's attention more on positivity, and being AWARE of it, by having a positivity report feature, or something of the nature.

    It would help the tribunal look like more of a place for the community to get together and see different demonstrations of behavior, both good AND bad.

    You can read the threads on the forums, and a looooot of people seem to think that this community is disgusting. And a lot of people IN the community are quite horrible to play with. Maybe this suggestion could be used to help reshape the community's thought about itself.

    A lot of people troll and act like jerks because they think everyone around them is the same. They reflect how they are treated and what they see and think about their environment. Ya know, babies, and people in general, learn by observation and mimicry.

    Of course, ya'll know that already :P

    It's not about increasing the accuracy of the Tribunal.

    It's about creating more positivity and wanting more and more players to BE positive.
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    I agree, that in general we should focus on the more positive aspects of the community and build systems that further empower that angle.

    Think of the Tribunal has a piece of the overall player behavior suite at Riot Games. The Tribunal focuses on the stick, and its primary goal is to reform or remove the most toxic players in the game.

    The Honor Initiative is another piece of the overall player behavior suite, and focuses on the carrot. Its primary goal is to nudge the neutral players slightly more positive in contexts where they otherwise would been toxic.

    On the player behavior team, we focus our development efforts on 5 pillars or philosophies.

    1) To reform or remove toxic players
    2) To shield players from toxic behavior
    3) To reinforce positive behaviors
    4) ?
    5) ?

    Sometimes our features will touch upon one of these pillars, and some will touch upon multiple. We are currently working on systems that touch multiple pillars, including #4 and #5 which we haven't discussed with the players yet.
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    Originally Posted by BloodOfNero View Post
    Except that you're not a scientist. You say there is a filter for false reports - this filter is the community, which makes the reports in the first place -> your "scientific reasoning" is flawed at its very base, and it makes me sad to see that even with this flawed logic, without even questioning you, as soon as a Riot post enters a thread like this, they automatically recieve a huge number of likes and brown-nosing, regardless of the argument or previous opinions in the thread that are held. Just sad :/
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    I am still a scientist and force myself to adhere to the same academic standards. When I talk about filters, I am not referring to the players. Players are not the filter. We've built systems into the Tribunal that calculates the validity of every report exchanged in the game.
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    Originally Posted by Unban Auspexa View Post
    I can't really see any feature to reform players...
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    We show Reform Cards and give Warnings and temporary suspensions before we permanently remove players. Because we're showing the players what sort of behavior isn't acceptable, it's on them to reform and change their ways.
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    Originally Posted by Katarìna View Post
    If that's the case, why was a game where I did nothing wrong in my case file on my Smurf? Most certainly I deserved to get the warning for one or two of the five games in the file, but surely playing AD Kat doesn't merit being included in the game list for Tribunal cases.

    If the Tribunal is going to cherry pick games from my history as support for its case against me, at least make it pick games in which I actually did something reportable, instead of taking two of such, then adding three bull**** to it to make it seem like I've done bad stuff in five games. Because ya know, most people don't even look at beyond one or two games to vote.
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    You admitted to deserving the warning for 1 or 2 out of the 5 games.

    That's how it works. Not all 5 games need to be toxic for you to deserve punishment. If you have questions about why the system is designed this way, please refer to the Tribunal FAQ here: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/....php?t=2726400

    Very briefly to touch on your points:
    1) The Tribunal didn't cherry pick games. It selects a sample, which is why even 1 bad game can mean a deserved punishment.
    2) Cases are randomly distributed to reviewers, so your verdict is not because players only look at 1 or 2 games.