This is not a thread complaining about overpowered champions being nerfed. It's about the nerfs coming are so strong that the playstyle is rendered useless.
It happens over and over again. Someone finds out a new way of playing a champion.
examples: Rengar, Sion, Tryndamere, Alistar.
Sometimes people just react stupidly because it's "new" and they don't know how to counter it, and that makes people say "op". Sometimes, the new playstyle can actually be OP nd sometimes it's just different.
My concern is, that as soon as Riot finds out about a new playstyle, creativity or onorthodox build, something they say they're all for, they make changes so that the new playstyle is completely unviable.
Look at AP rengar, was he too strong? Maybe. Can you play him at all anymore? No.
AP sion, too strong? Well good ganker/laner and bad late? Can you play him at all anymore? No
AP Alistar? Ugh.. no more.
And now AP trynd.
So my main concern is, why do you always OVERnerf unorthodox playstyles?
Can't even be bothered to try and break patterns anymore since if anyone does and find a new and interesting viable way of playing a champion, he gets destroyed.
Example from this thread:
Quote:Since you seem to be having trouble, how do you handle a split push?Quote:I'm not having trouble at all. How do you prevent a push? By pushing the guy out of lane. Tell me how do you succeed at that with this kind of healing potential?
Your, and MOST people's, strategy of dealing with a splitpusher is completely wrong.
I'd much rather have Riot let us THINK and ADAPT instead of making nerfs based on oppinions of people that refuse to think. Maybe if you "forced" the community to think for once, you wouldn't have so much nerfing to do.
Boy, it was really creative of people to click on a reddit thread and copy the build they saw within...
Seriously, we didn't hit Trynd when we made the Nashor's change for the exact reason you gave -- it's fun to do something non-traditional (we also didn't understand just how good the build was). However, the cat is out of the bag, everyone who actually discovered this build before it became really popular has been able to have their fun, and it's time to put serious thought into balancing it. Additionally, AP Tryndamere basically nullifies the core element of Tryndamere's kit -- rage management -- and isn't very fun to play against -- it turns him into a pseudo-unkillable hyper-sustainer against whom any non-lethal damage is healed over in less than the time between creep waves with a pure split push lategame.
What's with all the needlessly inflammatory and inaccurate posts today?
*AP Janna is a real build that wins games all the time. AP Janna was overpowered before. Live design feels she is balanced now. It's not Live design's fault a lot of people stopped playing her without objectively assessing her power. It's not their fault that player perception is incredibly fickle or that most players don't have an accurate perception of less common builds. It's not their fault that balanced supportive solo lane mages tend to see less play compared to balanced pure carry solo lane mages. She's still a blast to play, and effective to boot. You just have to appreciate the entire power of your kit and pick her in comps that can afford to sacrifice some damage from a solo laner (e.g., protect Kog'Maw or something similar).
*Rengar is not in an ideal spot right now. We realize that. The fact that we don't just roll out a perfect solution to him isn't a sign that we aren't trying. It's more a reflection of how difficult resourceless kits can be to balance, especially one with the positional and ability usage depth of Rengar.
*We DID buff AD Tryndamere last patch and the patch before that -- in 3.02 his collision radius was reduced substantially so that he could move through creeps/fights more fluidly without getting blocked. In 3.01 his base attack speed was increased and his fury decay slowed.
*We routinely buff underperforming champions. Let's look at the last couple patches:
3.02 -- Akali, Janna, Nami, Nasus, Sivir were all buffed to some degree
3.01 -- Diana, Heimer, Kennen, Nasus, Sion, Tristana, Tryndamere, Veigar, Volibear, were all buffed to some degree
*We have nerfed "unfun" builds that were also too powerful -- Darius has a nerf to his ultimate on the PBE at this very moment. We hit the absurd base damage on Teemo mushrooms a while ago. These kind of changes are both routine and essential to long term game health. That Teemo nerf was met with similar doom and gloom posts. Today? Teemo wins about half his games, and Liandry's Torment + Deathcap are some of his most commonly built items.
*Players have no inherent right in this game to playstyles that do not meaningfully engage their opponent in a way that can be responded to. Having a manaless 7.2 sec CD >500 hp heal on a champion with a 5.4 second CD wall hop and an invulnerability ult may be fun to play as, but that unending split push threat was just about the most frustrating thing ever to play against.
Quote:It's been made pretty clear, to me at least, from the red posts in this thread that AP tryndamere was not nerfed because he was overpowered in a traditional sense, but because he was incredibly unfun to play against and difficult to counter.
A good example I ran into recently: Diablo III has elite bad guys that reflect damage. The more damage you do to them, the more damage you do to yourself. It used to be that this was passively on all the time and you had to just wear your enemy down slowly. It felt like a war of attrition, and it wasn't fun at all. They changed it to an active ability: sometime's it's up, sometimes it's down, with a big effect showing me when it's up. I can now react to reflect damage being down by bursting harder, holding off when it's up, or decide the trade-off between damage to me and damage to my enemy is worth it. To me, that's way more fun to play against than before.
This is me speaking personally, not representing Live Design:
Generally, we try and balance along the lines of play/counterplay. Does an ability feel powerful? Awesome, that feels great for a player. Does it have counterplay? Good, that means that players feel like they have recourse to dealing with it. The best marriage of these two is when something feels overpowered to a player but isn't actually overpowered when put into practice (which win rate data can back up).
It's when an ability feels (and is) powerful and lacks counterplay that we start running into design problems. Split-pushing in general is not much fun to play against it, and it furthermore defeats the purpose of the game- demonstrating mastery over your champion via interactions with other champions. I know I personally don't want to play League of Whocankillturretsthebest.
The problem with AP Tryndamere is that he is governed by nothing but cooldowns, and being able to 1v1 most champions and heal back all of his health in 20 seconds or so (even less than that once you get a fair amount of AP), coupled with his ability to wreck turrets and escape via Spinning Slash and Undying Rage presents a gameplay experience that is very fun to play as, but not much fun to play with (your team is usually going to be fighting without you for the most part) or against (having to constantly watch your base and send multiple people to chase him down). Additionally, the AP Tryndamere player rarely has to make any interesting decisions regarding item purchases or skill order. You always buy Nashor's-> Ionian Boots-> Deathcap+Lichbane. You level Spinning Slash first and Bloodlust second. Every. Single. Game.
It wouldn't be as much of a problem if it wasn't as effective as it is- LoLKing puts him at a roughly 55% winrate in ranked across all elos. In fact, the winrate goes higher as you go up in elo and players better know how to take advantage of what he does by taking objectives while the enemy team sends 3-4 champions to chase him down. Even if AP Trynd is 1-5, I can wager that he'll have earned more gold for his team than the other top laner in the majority of games.
Quote:So your saying u don't like split pushing? So u hate Singed, hate Shen, etc., a viable strat is a viable strat, they comment on it on pretty much every tournament. They always like the idea of having different strats, but if you don't want it viable, make turrets different or change something to prevent it.
But I must say, having the option to split push, creates options, if your team can't win a team fight, to make small skirmishes possible and possibly winning that way. Instead of bending over and taking the loss from the start.
Certainly, League of Legends is not ARAM. It's not just "mash your heads together forever" but let's be real here. AP Tryndamere is stupid.
Quote:Just throwing this out there....
How is what AP tryn was doing any different from what Shaco/NIdalee's tend to do?
The never catachable split pusher isn't unique to tryn. (Nor is there much counterplay to those other two >.>. . .. course they are getting nerfed anyways..so guesss its already noted.)
That's why our only nerf is that you have to max out your fury to get the full heal. It's more of a parity thing that "Split push is the devil"
Quote:What about Gragas? He was overnerfed because of DFG and Riot didn't reverted those nerfs after DFG rework. Gragas is in a bad spot right now because his stupidly high mana costs after nerfs and because his ulti cooldown was increased from 60 secs to 80 secs at lvl 1(a 33% increase).
Full tank Gragas(jungle build) is totally inviable right now because of his actual ulti cooldown and mana costs. Season 3 jungle changes and itemization didn't helped him.
Jungle Gragas isn't a option anymore because of his past nerfs and Season 3 changes.