A while ago, I made a thread on my opinions why I think Youmuu's is weak and needed a few tweaks to help it out.
Maybe I was a bit hasty in writing it off as a bad item, but can any of the Rioters explain to me how its a balanced, or at least viable item, and what roles/scenarios/champions it's meant for? What situations it's good in, and things of the sort? (Not asking this rhetorically or sarcastically, I genuinely want to know what kind of roles/champions you intended this for and be able to use this item to its potential)
It seems to me that not many people use Youmuu's (I'm aware that usage of something does not necessarily mean it needs a nerf or a buff, could be many other factors)
Just wanted to ask why you believe it doesn't really need any changes (either nerfs or buffs)
Edit: looks like Riot responded, and they provided some information
Let's see if that can help this discussion.
To expand slightly - i only ever buy it on Fiora, but it's usually a first item directly behind vamp scepter and i credit that buy to solely winning me the game. I know SmashGizmo has a soft spot for it in his Xin Zhao builds (and the man plays an absurd number of solo Xin games). My feel is just that currently there aren't a lot of dudes who auto attack - and if they do auto attack (Like Xin, for instance) they're often jungling and being used for the utility they bring, so they focus on buys like Locket or Bulwark.
Since S3, i've seen Ghostblade used/used myself on no less than Fiora, Xin, Tryndamere, Garen, Renekton, Olaf, and Nocturne to great effect. It's probably just geared towards a playstyle that isn't mega popular, despite being pretty useful (i get a ton of free stats, so let me stack some cheap multiplier steroids and run you over with them).
It might be a decent item, but at it's current cost and when compaired to Black Cleaver there is no question about which item the top lane AD is going to build their Brutalizer into
You might be right that Black Cleaver is a better team-buy, but i'm not so sure that it's always the better upgrade. Avarice + Brut + 563~ has always been a better buildup in my eyes than Brut + Ruby + 1188~ as far as tempo goes - but also the jump you get for completeing ghostblade vs BC has always just seemed larger to me (at least with the cleaver nerfs).
So, i have a brutalizer. That's pretty cool - Armor penetration and the CDR and all that. Upgrade to a BC, and suddenly...i have 25 more AD and 20 more HP than the ruby i just had, and now i have to stack up this debuff on my opponent that reduces 25% of their armor in the laning phase? Even at higher level play, most casters/assassins will leave their Brutalizer at just that and hold off on getting the cleaver until later - unless in specific cases like Garen (who stacks the BC in just one spin).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenix9000
A first item on fiora?
Couldn't you just hold Brut (and therefore hold where most of the gold efficiency comes from)
and begin building something else (Zeal for instance)
Glad to see that you provided a response and some situations.
But.... er... Garen and Renekton?
It seems to me that they would benefit more from AD caster items like BT and BC
Can you go into a bit more depth, Don;t get me wrong, I appreciate the response, but a bit more info would really be appreciated.
You could possibly get Zeal - on Fiora at least, i usually build like an AD caster early (taking advantage of her insane burst potential + AD scaling - i used to rock Fiora mid quite a lot) but later on transition into a melee-carry build, relying on her insane Burst of Speed refresh + Ghsotblade combo steroid to carry me on the attack-speed side of things. I'll usually go for Ghostblade + Bloody Hydra then maybe an Infinity edge to give her ruler a bit more oomph. Personal preference though - if PD is your thing, you can certainly go down that road, just a bit too much sustained DPS for my tastes and not 'oh god that fiora just hit me like a truck, inside of a truck, with more trucks inside'.
As for Garen and Renekton getting ghostblades - Garen's case is actually pretty awesome (i'll usually get -both- BC and ghostblade) because of how well he scales with CDR, Crit, and Armor Penetration. A Garen-teed 6 second movement speed boost is also never bad to have when you're juggernauting past the frontlines into danger. Renekton also makes good use of both the basic stats and the active movement speed boost, since he becomes a swirling pool of death for like 50s when he uses his ult, being close after you is kind of a good thing.
Ghostblade is, IMO, exceptionally good in two specific scenarios.
1. Sole offensive item in an otherwise defensive bruiser build. This is what I do on Xin and Irelia nowadays (and for the record, if you get brutalizer on Vi, I personally think ghostblade is better on her than Cleaver, though I don't build either anymore). Characters who do builds like these excel in 3-6 second engagement windows, where you can have Ghostblade activated, which is where the item shines. As long as you are engaging with the active available, Ghostblade is giving you 30 AD, 40 AS, 15% Crit, 20 ArPen and the movement speed you need to stick as a Melee for 2700 gold. This mix of stats is very strong and self contained and extremely cost effective.
2. In AD caster builds. 20 ArPen is very strong on AD casters and the active gives you something to do while you wait for CDs. Ghostblade is essentially the better skirmish level upgrade to brutalizer for these characters while Cleaver is the better teamfight level upgrade. People seem to get scared off by the Crit and also still seem to be stuck in the League of Cleavers mindset and default to Black Cleaver, but Ghostblade is a viable and strong alternative on these characters.
What about ghostblade on a ranged adc? I used to put it into my Kog'maw build when I was pre-level 30. I actually got my first and only pentakill with the active popped.
Anyone else every build into a ranged adc build?
Ranged characters only get the active for 4 seconds and tend to have considerably longer engagement windows than bruisers. The item is not meant for ranged ADs and does work particularly well on them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AquaDragon42
Actually, Ghost Blade might be better on Vi. She already has a % armor shred with Denting Blows, so flat Armor Pen will help greatly. You then have the active which will help you apply more stacks of Denting Blow with out having to rely entirely on Excessive Force and auto attacks (which she would have to do if she got Black Cleaver). Other than Trinity Force and Berserker's Greaves (though I personally use Merc Treads or Boots of Swiftness on her) there arent really any other attack speed items for her that I can think of. And with her in the jungle, building an early Avarice Blade will help give her extra gold to get better items as well as more wards. (though personally I think warding should be done by everyone, not just supports and junglers)
Personally, I'm a big fan of Wit's End on Vi vs. double AP comps.
Also, we saw a ghostblade/triforce/warmog's build on Shushei's Vi today in the Eu LCS. I'd say avarice first is probably a trap in the Ghostblade buildup because of how powerful brutalizer is to get early.
I did not mean to get it first, though getting Avarice Blade durring the laning phase will most likely be best so you get more gold from each camp.
the unfortunate part of avarice blade is that it gives a stat that isn't worth sitting on alone, and all of its upgrades are large power boosts—it's very often a 'less than ideal' proposition to sit on it and farm up for a while. if you know that your team is in it for the long haul, it can be okay to farm up a few hundred gold with it, but it's rarely noticeable when you're looking at the big picture.
btw, youmuu's + last whisper is often the best 5k gold you can spend for physical damage in league of legends (the scenario does matter though), and there are a good handful of champions that can (by the end of the game) afford to spend the gold/slots on that much murdering power. some of my favorites are irelia, vi, olaf, and pretty much any ranged adc.
i actually think it's really cool, but i personally find it to have awkwardness directly proportional to the competitiveness of a given game.
essentially, when you're trying to optimize advantage from every facet of the game it gets really hard to justify offsetting the power curve of your build by 800g for a small discount which is directly proportional to an additional offset to your power curve. opportunistic players will take advantage of that, and competitive games are all about seizing opportunity.
all that considered, youmuu's is still a really good item, you just have to build into it properly based on your situation.
@Riot, What's your opinion on Youmuu's Ghostblade?
Maybe I was a bit hasty in writing it off as a bad item, but can any of the Rioters explain to me how its a balanced, or at least viable item, and what roles/scenarios/champions it's meant for? What situations it's good in, and things of the sort? (Not asking this rhetorically or sarcastically, I genuinely want to know what kind of roles/champions you intended this for and be able to use this item to its potential)
It seems to me that not many people use Youmuu's (I'm aware that usage of something does not necessarily mean it needs a nerf or a buff, could be many other factors)
Just wanted to ask why you believe it doesn't really need any changes (either nerfs or buffs)
Edit: looks like Riot responded, and they provided some information
Let's see if that can help this discussion.
To expand slightly - i only ever buy it on Fiora, but it's usually a first item directly behind vamp scepter and i credit that buy to solely winning me the game. I know SmashGizmo has a soft spot for it in his Xin Zhao builds (and the man plays an absurd number of solo Xin games). My feel is just that currently there aren't a lot of dudes who auto attack - and if they do auto attack (Like Xin, for instance) they're often jungling and being used for the utility they bring, so they focus on buys like Locket or Bulwark.
Since S3, i've seen Ghostblade used/used myself on no less than Fiora, Xin, Tryndamere, Garen, Renekton, Olaf, and Nocturne to great effect. It's probably just geared towards a playstyle that isn't mega popular, despite being pretty useful (i get a ton of free stats, so let me stack some cheap multiplier steroids and run you over with them).
So, i have a brutalizer. That's pretty cool - Armor penetration and the CDR and all that. Upgrade to a BC, and suddenly...i have 25 more AD and 20 more HP than the ruby i just had, and now i have to stack up this debuff on my opponent that reduces 25% of their armor in the laning phase? Even at higher level play, most casters/assassins will leave their Brutalizer at just that and hold off on getting the cleaver until later - unless in specific cases like Garen (who stacks the BC in just one spin).
Couldn't you just hold Brut (and therefore hold where most of the gold efficiency comes from)
and begin building something else (Zeal for instance)
Glad to see that you provided a response and some situations.
But.... er... Garen and Renekton?
It seems to me that they would benefit more from AD caster items like BT and BC
Can you go into a bit more depth, Don;t get me wrong, I appreciate the response, but a bit more info would really be appreciated.
As for Garen and Renekton getting ghostblades - Garen's case is actually pretty awesome (i'll usually get -both- BC and ghostblade) because of how well he scales with CDR, Crit, and Armor Penetration. A Garen-teed 6 second movement speed boost is also never bad to have when you're juggernauting past the frontlines into danger. Renekton also makes good use of both the basic stats and the active movement speed boost, since he becomes a swirling pool of death for like 50s when he uses his ult, being close after you is kind of a good thing.
1. Sole offensive item in an otherwise defensive bruiser build. This is what I do on Xin and Irelia nowadays (and for the record, if you get brutalizer on Vi, I personally think ghostblade is better on her than Cleaver, though I don't build either anymore). Characters who do builds like these excel in 3-6 second engagement windows, where you can have Ghostblade activated, which is where the item shines. As long as you are engaging with the active available, Ghostblade is giving you 30 AD, 40 AS, 15% Crit, 20 ArPen and the movement speed you need to stick as a Melee for 2700 gold. This mix of stats is very strong and self contained and extremely cost effective.
2. In AD caster builds. 20 ArPen is very strong on AD casters and the active gives you something to do while you wait for CDs. Ghostblade is essentially the better skirmish level upgrade to brutalizer for these characters while Cleaver is the better teamfight level upgrade. People seem to get scared off by the Crit and also still seem to be stuck in the League of Cleavers mindset and default to Black Cleaver, but Ghostblade is a viable and strong alternative on these characters.
Anyone else every build into a ranged adc build?
Also, we saw a ghostblade/triforce/warmog's build on Shushei's Vi today in the Eu LCS. I'd say avarice first is probably a trap in the Ghostblade buildup because of how powerful brutalizer is to get early.
btw, youmuu's + last whisper is often the best 5k gold you can spend for physical damage in league of legends (the scenario does matter though), and there are a good handful of champions that can (by the end of the game) afford to spend the gold/slots on that much murdering power. some of my favorites are irelia, vi, olaf, and pretty much any ranged adc.
essentially, when you're trying to optimize advantage from every facet of the game it gets really hard to justify offsetting the power curve of your build by 800g for a small discount which is directly proportional to an additional offset to your power curve. opportunistic players will take advantage of that, and competitive games are all about seizing opportunity.
all that considered, youmuu's is still a really good item, you just have to build into it properly based on your situation.