@Morello Tanks and Magic Resistance

  • Season 3 started with a huge un-direct nerf to tanks in regards with magic resistance. When you guys started the pre-season of Season 3, you took out one of the most beloved items: Force of Nature.

    The Force of Nature was needed in order for tanks to be able to soak in the damage from AP carries. When you guys removed it, tanks now have less item options against AP carries or champions that deal magic damage. I'm pretty sure you guys started the season with one of the many goals in mind: to give more item options. Indeed, the goal did work for supports and AD carries. Ironically, though, it reduced options for tanks.

    Spirit Visage is a nice item for tanks, but the passive is useless for certain tanks and/or in certain situations. Aegis of the Legion is also a nice item.

    However, the rest of the items are usually meant for supports (Mikael's Crucible), AP carries (Athene's, Abyssal Scepter, etc.), and bruisers (Wit's End, etc). Quicksilver Sash and Banshee's Veil just doesn't seem worth the investment unless the enemy team has lots of heavy CC. Guardian Angel isn't until late game.

    There's a lack of choices for tanks. If they want to build magic resist, they would literally HAVE to get Aegis and/or Spirit Visage in general. I would suggest you bring back Force of Nature or add in a few other items. The fact that we have more AP champions than AD champions doesn't really help.

    Any thoughts?
  • Xyph and I have been debating this one a bit. While I'm still considering a lot about MR (with Health being better, it does a lot to deal with many traditional mages), I think there's one definite problem at least; even if balanced, MR doesn't have any real big-ticket items to go "ya know, their Akali is really big and I need to deal with it" style items like Randuin's Omen.

    So, we're still talking about the raw balance (likely at least close), but I do agree MR doesn't feel as good as HP or armor.
  • Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;">
    Originally Posted by NotBuzzJack View Post
    I think part of the problem is also Void Staff's current power level.
    </td></tr></table>
    Agreed - it's not just an MR counter, but a solid straight damage item against lower MR teams.
  • Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;">
    Originally Posted by blazeingeagle View Post
    as if last whisper isn't too?
    </td></tr></table>
    I'd say Void Staff is a bigger offender as MR is also less robust.
  • There's a couple instances of dissonance in this thread which I'd like to see if I can address and clear up.

    Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> There's a lack of choices for tanks. If they want to build magic resist, they would literally HAVE to get Aegis and/or Spirit Visage in general. I would suggest you bring back Force of Nature or add in a few other items. </td></tr></table>
    The answer for a lack of choices for tanks by introducing one single huge tank MR item doesn't introduce more choices. It simply offers one single best choice. It is slightly odd that the proposal to add more MR options for tanks involves first locking them to a completely different MR item - especially one that can be used by both fighters and tanks.

    Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> Tanks have no options against sustained AP damage, hence why Health is insufficient. </td></tr></table>
    In general, sustained AP damage comes from a magic damage source with some very special properties. Not all AP mages can actually output high sustained magic damage at all. Karthus and Cassieopeia certainly fit this bill but they have very nuanced play / skill required as that is their primary strength. Orianna outputs sustained magic damage but her DPS is abysmal compared to any other mage.

    So who are these sustained AP damage characters that are frequently referenced? The answer: Sustained AP Fighters - Elise, Diana, Rumble.

    The lack of decent MR options against these characters is quite punishing, I agree but this is an entirely new class of characters - One that I'm not convinced should actually exist at the strength they do or if a dedicated MR item would actually help in this case. These characters are extremely punishing mid-game, for example - but tend to start suffering late game due to being closer range fighters.

    Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> Resource-less champions and Magic Resistance </td></tr></table>
    Yes, resource-less champions don't have the greatest itemization pool - as the existence of Mana and MP/5 seems to drive you away from a large portion of the item pool.

    This is, at once, a controversial and yet obvious statement: Playing a resourceless champion is not a pure benefit - there are tradeoffs. For example - the advantage of being able to be completely resourceless in lane, you pay a cost in that your starting item pool is far more limited. You have enormous strengths that are also easy to plan for by your opponent.

    Similarly, for the late game, it is going to mean that your champion might waste statistics. It is going to mean that some purchases will be suboptimal for your character - and it will mean that you will feel bad in that stage of the game as your strength now no longer matters.

    In general, I'm okay with how the current model works because the alternative is to simply take a lot of power away from resourceless champions across the board to the extent that being resourceless is actually a penalty and then providing itemization to get around that penalty.

    Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> Why not make a massive Health + Magic Resistance Item </td></tr></table>
    Let's think about the goals here for a second: If the goal is to make tanks feel better about fighting mages - why is the solution presented to create one of the most powerful defensive fighters items?

    Don't get me wrong, this would be a good tank item. However, at the end of the day - it would be an even better fighter item - no matter how you look at it. Intrinsically, durability alone does not make a tank item - because two classes are defined by durability - Fighters and Tanks.

    That's the crux of a lot of the issue with raw durability statistics - the desire is to be more durable and to not have to 'waste' a whole lot of statistics to get there. However, if there's any class that prizes durability even more so than tanks - it is fighters, because they, not only have to initiate - but they have to frequently stay in the fight much much longer to actually contribute, because their power in a fight is typically sheer time and presence - while a tank's purpose can be fulfilled by an overwhelming initiation or a clutch peel.

    For example, contrast how much longer Udyr has to stay in a fight to contribute meaningfully versus a character like Sejuani or Malphite. If Sejuani only survived to throw her ultimate and follow it up with Perma Frost, how long does Udyr have be able to live in a fight to actually match that?

    Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> Tanks and the current environment </td></tr></table>
    Lastly and this is the most interesting one for me - there doesn't seem to be any evidence right now that tanks are doing poorly in the current environment, nor does it seem that tanks are unable to perform in order to win a game. Jungle Tank characters such as Sejuani, Zac and Nautilus contribute heavily towards their team's success - even if they fail to be invulnerable late game.

    As for more traditional tank characters that lane - for example, Singed or Jarvan - perform excellently in the current environment. If the environment were shifting towards a dominant double or triple AP strategy - it certainly hasn't impacted their abilities to win games.
  • Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> You also left out rammus as a tank that performs well </td></tr></table>
    Rammus does perform well right now but people don't perceive him as such - so I left him out as to not step on anyone's sensibilities.

    Rammus could be cleaned up a bit though - it's hard to appreciate how powerful a lot of his abilities are.