Why isn't there a Spellvamp Item for AD Casters?

  • That said, I actually do want to focus on seeing if I can make some kind of physical damage lifesteal thing work, that nicely gets it away from the magic damage / true damage dealing characters and focuses it much more on characters who do heavy attack damage scaling spells without a lot of autoattacks.

    Running into trouble with it though as the heal numbers tend to be ridiculously insane or pitiful depending on the AoE coefficient I put on it. It's odd that so many of our glass AD assassins use AoE damage as their "burst" combo. It never actually seems to work coefficient wise.
  • Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> I thought Tanky fighters were suppose to destroy Glass AD assassin's to begin with so expect an item to change that I think is kind of absurd also my goal isn't to help Talon or Pantheon rather just see more itemization options for AD casters while Black Cleaver is a good step I feel it about time to take another one. </td></tr></table>
    Fair - if the goal here is simply to introduce more options for AD itemization, I can be on board with that. I'll just make the point that AD / Spell Vamp tends to be counterproductive in the long run as the item tends to simply make glass AD casters less viable at the expense of tanky AD casters - and thus, the additional itemization will simply sacrifice a portion of these type of characters (the squishy AD assassins) in favor of more itemization for the tankier portion of this type of character.

    Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> So is the best corse of action to do nothing and nerf ratios if an assassin is deemed worthy of play? </td></tr></table>
    Which assassin are you referring to here, specifically? Most assassins have different reasons for why they are or aren't getting attention.

    Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> I main Talon, even with his odd place in the current meta, and I do believe the balance issue with him and many other casters would be some sort of compromise between the OP and the current state of the game. </td></tr></table>
    I'm not really understanding what you're trying to say here - could you reword this?

    Looking through the data on champions, Talon has done consistently well in the past several months. He may not be a competitive pick that will be seen in LCS - but Talon has one of the highest win rates in the game - frequently in the top 10. That doesn't mean that Talon is fine or overpowered - it just means that if you pick Talon, you'll generally win more games than you'll lose. I'm not going to say that Talon doesn't have his problems or that Talon can't fail - it's just that the people playing Talon at the moment win much more than they lose.

    The rise of Zed has kind of diminished Talon's pick rate somewhat but in that time frame, Talon consistently shows better raw win results - perhaps due to the mastery of the Talon population.
  • Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> Actually if lifesteal worked at, say, maybe 35% efficiency when used with AD-scaling abilities, this might get the desired result without sacrificing item balance too much. </td></tr></table>
    It's an interesting thought definitely but the scary portion of this is that you'd have to introduce a heavy ranged / melee split in order to prevent Miss Fortune or other heavy AD-scaling ranged carries from becoming dominant with lifesteal being the way it is.

    Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> Generally we observe a pattern: Talon is doing well? Nerfs. Zed doing well? Nerfs (and ones that gut his playstyle and force him into a different one to boot). Akali doing... not even doing well, just gets noticed? Nerfs. Diana doing well? Nerfs (though to be fair, she is/was legitimately broken). </td></tr></table>
    Talon performs consistently above his peers at the moment - whether that's due to the skill of the Talon population, that remains to be seen.

    Zed is mostly an issue of how he warps competitive play - in fact, Zed suffers from the same problems that Olaf suffered in a lot of ways - Zed is much much more effective at high competitive play than he is at low competitive play, so even when Zed has a subpar win rate for the majority of our player base - we have to hit him because he's so overwhelmingly dominant in competitive.

    That's also why you see the attempt at shifting his playstyle because with his current pattern, it is almost certainly going to ensure that if Zed is balanced and a good competitive pick, 95% of our players shouldn't pick Zed because they will lose.

    I don't have the full context on Akali, I apologize. :x
  • Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> Have you considered Spellvamp boots? Tanky champs would still probably prefer Merc's or Tabi, but it provides another offensive boot choice for casters (AD or AP, for that matter). Right now they pretty much stick to Lucidity or pick up one of the defensive options. </td></tr></table>
    Honestly, if it were up to me I'd like to phase out Spellvamp entirely and pursue vamp based on specific damage types - like Physical Vamp and Magical Vamp - It makes the purpose of the item a lot more clear.

    I think I'll have time to really drill on it in a couple months - currently we're working on cleaning up some of our other systems that feel worse.
  • Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> It's just that when I play him I find him to be lacking slightly when compared to others that fit his exact role. Zed and Kha fill his role and others at the same time. I can't quite put my finger on what it is, but he feels like he needs a small something to be even. </td></tr></table>
    I agree with you that Talon doesn't feel as satisfying or as versatile as Zed or Kha'zix. In fact, when Talon has a bad game - you have a really bad game.

    In fact, even when Talon has a good game, the first 15 minutes of that game is typically - "Oh my god, I am getting the stuffing beaten out of me in lane."

    I'm not saying Talon is in the greatest of spots from a satisfaction or a team versatility standpoint, he's clearly not but he doesn't seem like he's as dysfunctional as some other characters we're churning on.

    Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> That's it. No boost of damage for abilities for getting crit. Or atk speed. </td></tr></table>
    Oh definitely. I actually completely agree with you on this point.

    I've actually experimented quite a bit with making attack speed scale certain key attributes of Pantheon for example. You can easily envision a world where Heartseeker Strike's channel time / tick rate and cooldown were all reduced by attack speed, for example. It's something that I'm actually really keen on trying to do except for the fact that it seems like current Pantheon players really like him and he's really doing well - so there's no real need for change at this point if players are satisfied with him.
  • Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> To be honest, assuming you could perfectly design an item for such a specific purpose, will spellvamp on AD assassins specifically make the game better? I can't see that really being the case. </td></tr></table>
    You're right in that adding sustain options on AD assassins (or even improving the AD assassin pattern) doesn't seem to have a whole lot of gains for the players facing them - nor does improving their primary pattern seem to hold a lot of gains for making the game more fun for anyone but the assassin.

    However, the goal here would be to create backup patterns for these assassins when things go poorly. If an AD assassin cannot burst a character in lane - we should not be providing itemization for him to automatically burst you down, we should be probably some kind of plan B, where he doesn't *need* to burst you down in order to properly fit on his team.

    In short, you're right in that we probably can't make burst assassin's primary patterns a whole lot better - but what we can do is give them alternative strategies for when that gameplan doesn't pan out so that they can still do something that game, rather than being incredibly swingy feast or famine characters.

    Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> Talon has one of the highest win ratios, but doesn't take into account he is one of the least played champs, could have 90% win ratio and only be played 10 times.. does that make him a great champion? underplayed increases the win ratio. vs say 1000 games. etc etc </td></tr></table>
    Definitely a fair point and always a danger when dealing with statistics as you can interpret them in a lot of ways - Again, I'm not saying Talon is fine, overpowered or unsatisfying - just that the current players of Talon seem to be doing okay with him.
  • Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> I'm not saying it's a bad goal necessarily, but I have a hunch that you are basically suggesting the impossible at this point. An item that fundamentally gives recovery options is naturally something that would practically guaranteed to be be applicable to many more champions than simply our problematic AD assassins. </td></tr></table>
    Oh definitely - I agree with you that this item would probably be applicable to a lot of champions - however, in the items world - all you pretty much have to do is ensure that it doesn't benefit their direct competitor more and you've done the class a net plus - while also allowing for some fun off-builds. This is my main concern with AD / SV, for example - is that what happens is hurting the class that you originally wanted to help.

    BoRK does this somewhat for carries - really good for some carries as a self-peel - but also a decent fighter and assassin item for sticking and initiation. It just happens to be better on carries than fighters, for the most part although I will agree that this case is debatable.

    In the end though, this logic is best applied to retuning the champion's kit itself - rather than itemization. Itemization is a fairly broad strokes approach and you have to solve things on the right level. However, champion redesigns are typically more disruptive and harder to undo than itemization adjustments - so there's some tradeoffs between costs and control.

    Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> Isn't that just building tank items? I see Panth do it all the time and still perform well. He has high base damage, CC, and something defensive (Most assassins do) so it seems perfectly reasonable that plan b should be to be another tank. </td></tr></table>
    This holds for a lot of characters - but there are some standout characters in which this isn't a good fallback. Pantheon has some great fallback patterns because his ultimate and his aegis give him some degree of flexibility. Talon or Akali don't really have this option.

    To be fair, it could point to the fact that their kits should be restructured a bit to introduce more skillful play or fallback patterns - but see above.

    Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> PLEASE do this. The current system is atrocious. </td></tr></table>
    That's something that's more appropriate to do in between seasons rather than mid-season so there's probably little chance of even starting investigations down that avenue soon.
  • Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> Obvious number tweaking aside; thoughts? </td></tr></table>
    That's not different enough from Hydra to warrant the adjusment, I feel.

    Unless of course, Hydra became true to its namesake and actually had 5 forms ("heads") which you could swap around when you were at the item shop - which is a fairly interesting idea that I will pitch to someone.
  • Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> Long story short: please don't quote win rates. Statistics can be interpreted many ways and it is too easy for a false conclusion to be made -- and subsequently shipped to the player base -- under the guise of a red post. </td></tr></table>
    I'm not saying Talon is fine, overpowered or competitive. I'm simply saying that the current Talon players win far more games than they lose. This is probably due to a combination of them being experienced or familiar with Talon and his matchups and Talon's actual power level.

    I'm not saying that Talon doesn't have problems - simply that it seems to indicate that Talon isn't completely dysfunctional at the moment compared to other champions we're working on.
  • Quote:
    <table cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" border="0" width="100%"> <tr> <td class="alt2" style="border:1px inset; padding:10px;"> I understand that, but then what relevancy does quoting that data have to support your claims if not considering other important variables? </td></tr></table>
    It's an explanation for why we are prioritizing other tasks over him - not a statement on his overall power level or his balance.

    It's obviously a bitter statement to read - that their champion isn't completely on fire when there are obvious problems - but it is the honest answer.