^ I would like to heal when I cast Rake or spin 2 win
#1 6/13/2013 5:53:49 AM
#9 6/13/2013 5:53:49 AMQuote:
Because Xypherous believes it would be too strong on champions like Xin Zhao and Irelia.
The champions in question that benefit from AD / SV the most are tanky fighters with a lot of non-autoattack base damage and the durability to stand there and soak - Essentially, if you can output a consistent steady stream of damage - while being durable enough to benefit from high amounts of in-combat regeneration.
For example, Lee Sin / Udyr / Shyvana oddly enough would benefit the most from an AD and Spell Vamp pairing because they are durable enough to make the non-autoattack drain pattern work and have relatively decent scaling with AD. However, the goal for the AD / Spell Vamp item - as people have continuously requested - is to make Glass AD assassins viable in lane (characters like Talon or Pantheon.) However, as the item tends to work better on these types of tanky spell damage fighters - this poses a problem in more than one way.
It gets exacerbated by the fact that these tanky spell damage fighters are the ones that the Glass AD assassin characters have the most trouble with in the first place. We saw this in Twisted Treeline with Lord Van Damm's Pillager. It was a good Talon item, to be sure - but it was a great tanky Lee Sin or Darius item that then they used to wipe the floor with Talon.
In the end, if the goal is to help Talon and Pantheon out - it seems counterproductive to release an item that is better on the people who they have the most trouble with.
#18 6/7/2013 1:24:01 AMThat said, I actually do want to focus on seeing if I can make some kind of physical damage lifesteal thing work, that nicely gets it away from the magic damage / true damage dealing characters and focuses it much more on characters who do heavy attack damage scaling spells without a lot of autoattacks.
Running into trouble with it though as the heal numbers tend to be ridiculously insane or pitiful depending on the AoE coefficient I put on it. It's odd that so many of our glass AD assassins use AoE damage as their "burst" combo. It never actually seems to work coefficient wise.
#25 6/7/2013 1:31:11 AMQuote:
I thought Tanky fighters were suppose to destroy Glass AD assassin's to begin with so expect an item to change that I think is kind of absurd also my goal isn't to help Talon or Pantheon rather just see more itemization options for AD casters while Black Cleaver is a good step I feel it about time to take another one.
So is the best corse of action to do nothing and nerf ratios if an assassin is deemed worthy of play?
I main Talon, even with his odd place in the current meta, and I do believe the balance issue with him and many other casters would be some sort of compromise between the OP and the current state of the game.
Looking through the data on champions, Talon has done consistently well in the past several months. He may not be a competitive pick that will be seen in LCS - but Talon has one of the highest win rates in the game - frequently in the top 10. That doesn't mean that Talon is fine or overpowered - it just means that if you pick Talon, you'll generally win more games than you'll lose. I'm not going to say that Talon doesn't have his problems or that Talon can't fail - it's just that the people playing Talon at the moment win much more than they lose.
The rise of Zed has kind of diminished Talon's pick rate somewhat but in that time frame, Talon consistently shows better raw win results - perhaps due to the mastery of the Talon population.
#30 6/7/2013 1:43:11 AMQuote:
Actually if lifesteal worked at, say, maybe 35% efficiency when used with AD-scaling abilities, this might get the desired result without sacrificing item balance too much.
Generally we observe a pattern: Talon is doing well? Nerfs. Zed doing well? Nerfs (and ones that gut his playstyle and force him into a different one to boot). Akali doing... not even doing well, just gets noticed? Nerfs. Diana doing well? Nerfs (though to be fair, she is/was legitimately broken).
Zed is mostly an issue of how he warps competitive play - in fact, Zed suffers from the same problems that Olaf suffered in a lot of ways - Zed is much much more effective at high competitive play than he is at low competitive play, so even when Zed has a subpar win rate for the majority of our player base - we have to hit him because he's so overwhelmingly dominant in competitive.
That's also why you see the attempt at shifting his playstyle because with his current pattern, it is almost certainly going to ensure that if Zed is balanced and a good competitive pick, 95% of our players shouldn't pick Zed because they will lose.
I don't have the full context on Akali, I apologize. :x
#35 6/7/2013 1:53:55 AMQuote:
Have you considered Spellvamp boots? Tanky champs would still probably prefer Merc's or Tabi, but it provides another offensive boot choice for casters (AD or AP, for that matter). Right now they pretty much stick to Lucidity or pick up one of the defensive options.
I think I'll have time to really drill on it in a couple months - currently we're working on cleaning up some of our other systems that feel worse.
#42 6/7/2013 2:00:15 AMQuote:
It's just that when I play him I find him to be lacking slightly when compared to others that fit his exact role. Zed and Kha fill his role and others at the same time. I can't quite put my finger on what it is, but he feels like he needs a small something to be even.
In fact, even when Talon has a good game, the first 15 minutes of that game is typically - "Oh my god, I am getting the stuffing beaten out of me in lane."
I'm not saying Talon is in the greatest of spots from a satisfaction or a team versatility standpoint, he's clearly not but he doesn't seem like he's as dysfunctional as some other characters we're churning on.
That's it. No boost of damage for abilities for getting crit. Or atk speed.
I've actually experimented quite a bit with making attack speed scale certain key attributes of Pantheon for example. You can easily envision a world where Heartseeker Strike's channel time / tick rate and cooldown were all reduced by attack speed, for example. It's something that I'm actually really keen on trying to do except for the fact that it seems like current Pantheon players really like him and he's really doing well - so there's no real need for change at this point if players are satisfied with him.
#50 6/7/2013 2:05:15 AMQuote:
To be honest, assuming you could perfectly design an item for such a specific purpose, will spellvamp on AD assassins specifically make the game better? I can't see that really being the case.
However, the goal here would be to create backup patterns for these assassins when things go poorly. If an AD assassin cannot burst a character in lane - we should not be providing itemization for him to automatically burst you down, we should be probably some kind of plan B, where he doesn't *need* to burst you down in order to properly fit on his team.
In short, you're right in that we probably can't make burst assassin's primary patterns a whole lot better - but what we can do is give them alternative strategies for when that gameplan doesn't pan out so that they can still do something that game, rather than being incredibly swingy feast or famine characters.
Talon has one of the highest win ratios, but doesn't take into account he is one of the least played champs, could have 90% win ratio and only be played 10 times.. does that make him a great champion? underplayed increases the win ratio. vs say 1000 games. etc etc
#64 6/7/2013 2:22:44 AMQuote:
I'm not saying it's a bad goal necessarily, but I have a hunch that you are basically suggesting the impossible at this point. An item that fundamentally gives recovery options is naturally something that would practically guaranteed to be be applicable to many more champions than simply our problematic AD assassins.
BoRK does this somewhat for carries - really good for some carries as a self-peel - but also a decent fighter and assassin item for sticking and initiation. It just happens to be better on carries than fighters, for the most part although I will agree that this case is debatable.
In the end though, this logic is best applied to retuning the champion's kit itself - rather than itemization. Itemization is a fairly broad strokes approach and you have to solve things on the right level. However, champion redesigns are typically more disruptive and harder to undo than itemization adjustments - so there's some tradeoffs between costs and control.
Isn't that just building tank items? I see Panth do it all the time and still perform well. He has high base damage, CC, and something defensive (Most assassins do) so it seems perfectly reasonable that plan b should be to be another tank.
To be fair, it could point to the fact that their kits should be restructured a bit to introduce more skillful play or fallback patterns - but see above.
PLEASE do this. The current system is atrocious.
#71 6/7/2013 2:34:32 AMQuote:
Obvious number tweaking aside; thoughts?
Unless of course, Hydra became true to its namesake and actually had 5 forms ("heads") which you could swap around when you were at the item shop - which is a fairly interesting idea that I will pitch to someone.