Let's talk about Yorick

  • This is unprecedentedly good feedback. ZenonTheStoic is helping me gather feedback on the EU German forums as well.

    So my general take aways so far:
    • The general fantasy Yorick players have is very consistent and unsatisfied.
    • Yorick is much more offensive to players than I had imagined.
    • Yorick players come in two major categories.
    • - Pick Yorick for his Theme (Necromancer)
    • - Pick Yorick for his Raw Power (Broken sustain/poke)

    This guy will probably be a much more severe rework than Xerath. However, it seems clear what direction he must go:

    1) Yorick must feel like he controls an "Army of the Damned" - multiple minions, not one powerful one
    2) Yorick must feel like he can make skillful plays, using his ghouls.
    3) Yorick opponents must feel like they can outplay his moves.

    Some Yorick players show that they appreciate how powerful and uncounterable Yorick is. However, this is not healthy for league, as I think most players will agree. The surprise to me is that these Yorick players feel that he prevents other, worse, champion playstyles from becoming dominant in top lane.

    If this is true, it means we may need to simultaneously investigate those issues, if Yorick is the last bastion counter champ.... I will confer with higher skilled players to see if this is consistently true.

    Either way, his "no-brain" playstyle clearly must go.
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    Originally Posted by Dues Pater View Post
    will he more of a problem reworking compared to poppy and sion ? He has a lot of potential for the creativity(as a necromancer) i see, reworking him long but probably rewarding.
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    Sion has a conflict of mechanics and fantasy. Yorick seems to have no real mechanics that players latch onto - only power. Perhaps a few nuances with the ultimate or the ability to position minions.

    However, the fantasy space of a spirit/ghoul conjurer who also fights is a rich one.
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    Originally Posted by CynicalGiant View Post
    I would like him to stay a pusher and a lane bully though to be honest.
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    Pusher, sure. If by lane bully, you mean someone who can zone someone infinitely with massive sustain and damage... then no, that part needs to die in the fires of Dar'kinoor.
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    Originally Posted by CynicalGiant View Post
    I would like him to stay a pusher and a lane bully though to be honest.
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    Pusher, sure. If by lane bully, you mean someone who can zone someone infinitely with massive sustain and damage... then no, that part needs to die in the fires of Dar'kinoor.
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    Originally Posted by Akava View Post
    Xelnath, if I may ask, what made you decide to work on Yorick? Was it directed to you based on a list of champs that the dev team feels needs work or did you have a personal drive to make him healthy for the game?

    I ask mostly because I can't seem to figure out why some champs see attention over others. I wonder if I'm not seeing the big picture.
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    Singed and Jayce are being handled by other people in different ways.

    Teemo... *shudder*.

    Jayce, Singed and Teemo all bring cool, unique experiences to league in the form of tactical shrooms, gateways with dodgable balls of explosiveness and poison trail.

    Yorick brings none of that. Maybe he clones a fed ADC once in 20 games.

    Yorick is toxic in lane, detrimental to his team in the midgame and outright useless unless absurdly fed. So yes, its a mix of personal passion along with the confirmation granted by the feedback in these past two threads that has solidified my belief that Yorick needs to be reworked.
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    Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
    Second most toxic actually. The most toxic kind of experience is playing a champion that is terrible earlygame, midgame and only good when the stars align and hell becomes frosty. Champions such as Pre remake nerfed Eve/Xin and current Veigar/Mordekaiser/Heimerdinger all fall into this category. People want to play these champions because they have an attachment to them, they know they suck, they know they could play something else filling the same role but they won't. Yorick has something going for him, even if endgame he becomes demoted to "Support" (due to his ultimate), at least he contributes to a team positively when played well. This is one of the reasons he is actually played as a support in tournaments sometimes.


    Anyways if Yorick were to be readjusted, it'd be nice if his Ghouls acted more like Elises Spiderlings and only attacked the things near him or the things he was attacking or if there was some actual reward for killing the ghouls like spiderlings. The current situation is, damned if you do, damned if you don't because the ghouls are disposable, too disposable. There is no point in killing them, they are too fast to avoid and they die on their own within the time it takes you to kill them.

    So I have Two Ideas I'd like to share with you.
    1. Twin Shadows Method - Make the ghosts immune to all damage and die after they have preformed one attack. Keeps him unique and takes away his endgame weakness (ghouls dying to AoE instantly). This makes them less of a disposable pet and more of a two part spell that looks like a pet.
    2. The Orianna Method - Killing units with his auto attacks (The shovel) plays a digging animation that grants him a ghoul which follows him around like spiderlings and are controlled with his spells similar to Orianna's Ball. This "digging" passive has an internal cooldown so killing his ghouls ends up having meaning, and Yorick actually wants to keep his ghouls alive instead of spamming them at you. Proper Risk/Reward.

    TLDR - The problem as I see it in regards to Yorick, some champions can't get near him because they can't kill the ghouls. Other champions flat out ignore him because they can kill the ghouls extremely easily which is also the problem Yorick has endgame. Ghouls need a total rework.
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    Ghouls should get a total rework, I agree.

    I find your two concepts interesting. I love the thought you've put into this post as well.

    1 is "Ghoul as spell effect"
    2 is "Ghoul as remote unit which performs spells"

    Yorick players - which of these directions do you find more appealing?
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    Originally Posted by smurfninja3000 View Post
    Xelnath can you take a damn cattle prod to the team that is working on Heimerdinger PLEASE!!!!

    its great that you are moving from champion to champion getting information and everything and everyone loves you for it.

    but the team that is working on heimerdinger needs to get there sh!t together so smack them around a bit.
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    Actually, Heimerdinger is making progress. However, my sudden insertion of Xerath into the playtesting schedule pushed Heimerdinger back severely. (You can't playtest two AP mid characters effectively in the same game without warping feedback.)

    Morello actually asked me if I would like to pickup the task of finishing off Heimerdinger now that Xerath is getting into a good state. I actually said no, because I'm fried mentally on the AP character space right now and the "cleanup/pruning" stages of development are the ones I find most stressful. (I'll post more about this in the Xerath thread).

    So, feel free to blame me for Heimerdinger being pushed back. That said, they've actually done a great job of remaking him to feel way more satisfying and he's on his way.

    That said, I won't be commenting on Heimerdinger again in this thread. Let's focus our attention on discussing Yorick.
  • Whew... Finally caught up with this thread.

    A lot of good thoughts here.

    Things filtering to the top:

    * Yorick should still be in the front line
    * Ghouls are what Yorick is about.
    * Ghouls should last longer
    * Ghouls should be meaningful to Yorick
    * Ghouls should give *some* gold (maybe 5 like Zyra plants?) if you last hit them

    Problems:

    * Yorick's free, ranged sustain is highly frustrating and doesn't require himself to be at risk (Compare with Nasus)
    * Yorick's snares and lockdown kit (W -> Q) means once you do close, the enemy has no chance to escape in an even match
    * Yorick's ultimate is too dependant on allies and feels out of theme with Yorick.
    * Yorick's kit doesn't give Yorick players an opportunity to be skillful.

    Going to cook up a couple ideas based on the stuff I've seen here. (Keep in mind, no work on this will begin for quite some time - I'm trying to establish a baseline understanding of player expectations and gameplay hypothesis I want to solve.)

    Thanks guys
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    Originally Posted by Mundo View Post
    Great thats exactly what it is but it will be extremely hard to balance. Just keep in mind, currently his early game is strong and late game is kind of weak. So you're going to want to balance it out according to that.
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    Thanks, sir. BTW, I appreciate the bananas.
  • I've thrown together two "kit" ideas based on the concepts posed earlier for discussion of the ideas behind them. Keep in mind, these are only tooltips... and tooltips are much easier to write than abilities are to build.

    Which of these better fits the kind of character Yorick should be? Please explain why you like or hate it.

    Kit 1)

    Ghouls buff Yorick. Yorick can give these buffs to an Ally.

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    Kit 2)

    Ghouls interplay with each other. Yorick's ultimate is a powerful army command tool.

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    (Q - Ranged Nuke)
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    (E - Skillshot)
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