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Reign of Gaming Forums

A Buff/Nerf Mind Meld

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  • #1 Scofftastic

    Hello, I'm Scofftastic. I have been reading articles on RoG for awhile now, but I'm new to the forums. I'd like to propose an opportunity to brainstorm champion balancing ideas from the community in an organized, civil manner. I feel if we can maintain a certain level of cordiality, we can get some very interesting discussion going. I would also like to be up front about my personal experience with the game. I am a roughly 1200 elo player and have been playing for about 6 months.

    I looked, albeit briefly, for another thread of this type (maybe I just didn't find it), but this feels like the right place for it. I want to discuss potential buff/nerf ideas for champions. This is simple enough, but I want the ideas to be well formed and well explained so discussion can be engaging and productive. 

    As I have no idea if this thread will be popular or not, I do not know how easily it could devolve into pointless posts or just quickly fall into obscurity. However, I would like to propose a few simple rules that may or may not be followed, but may help keep it running as smoothly as possible:

    1. Please avoid posting short comments in general, particularly ones that don't progress discussion in any way. You know the type.

    2. Try to limit your post to one well-developed and explained buff/nerf suggestion of one character and/or one well-developed counter-argument to a previous poster's suggestion. To put it simply: one suggestion and/or one counter-argument. This should help improve the quality of each post while also helping keep the posts short enough that reading each one is a daunting task. Multiple posts by the same person are of course welcome, just try to separate them. At the very least, making multiple posts will break up the wall of text.

    3. Counter-arguments may require quoting other posters' entries, but for the sake of preventing mile-long posts that include these, try to just quote the main points if you can.

    4. Obviously, try to remain civil in all of your posts, as this is the only way for the thread to be productive. I have no way to control this, but I hope the community can enjoy each other's opinions and reply to them with respect and information. Try to avoid the good ol' "nope, you're wrong" argument. This isn't informative in any way. Explain why you feel they are wrong in a courteous way.

    5. Be creative! Really look into a champion's kit you feel should be changed. Adjusting numbers is sometimes all a character needs, but significant skill changes can be interesting and fun to ponder over. 

    To hopefully get the ball rolling, I'll throw in a potential nerf that I recently discussed with a friend of mine.

    Karthus: Death Defied (passive) now has a cooldown of 4 minutes.

    This I believe would help allow for some real counter play against Karthus, while still keeping his kit intact as a whole. This passive is what makes almost no decision in a team fight scenario a good one against a karthus. Focus him down? You have an invincible Karthus with infinite mana in the middle of your team for the next 7 seconds. Leave him alone? He will still be putting out brutal damage with his Q and messing with your positioning via his W. With this change, he will still be a post-death terror in about half of team fights, but it will give the opposing team a chance to try to force plays while his passive is down. This should hardly affect him in lane, as he probably won't be dying often enough to worry about the passive not being up, nor is laning the place it shines anyway. This change would also make his decisions to use his ultimate a little more interesting. If his passive is down, he will have to make a tougher decision of when to press R. If he uses it early, his team may not be able to take advantage of the damage. However, if he uses it mid-fight he may very well be interrupted. If he doesn't use it at all and dies without his passive, he missed out on a whole lot of his damage potential in the team fight.

    This is an example of the kind of thing that I believe would be interesting and fun to discuss. This is also just an example format. If you think of an easier way to read it, feel free to post your suggestion in that format. This may be a bit ambitious, but I think we can make this a very positive and informational thread. As always, try to be respectful and courteous to others and have fun with it!

  • #2 jhnz

    I've been playing a bit of Karma(!) lately and I think her biggest issue is the fact, that she can only hold two stacks of Mantra at any time. The other problem I see is that the cooldown on creating Mantra stacks wont drop below like 8.5 seconds. I think she would be much more viable and actually decent if she could stack up to 3 or even 4 Mantras at any time. Another possibilty would be to lower the cooldown on creating Mantras. I think one or maybe a combination of those two points would enable her to bring more utility as support and more damage as mid to the field without making her able to spam her mantra-empowerd abilities. You'd still have your regular CDs on your other abilities so I think this quite simple change could make her so much better.

    On a side note: I love Karma's kit :)

  • #3 killox3

    I also enjoy the unloved Karma, and I think this would be a welcome and fitting change. I on the whole rather enjoy her kit, and am somewhat anxious about the (supposedly) upcoming rework. I think another area that lets her down is Spirit Bond (W), and how it is commonly not taken at all. I believe all supports need some form of CC, and this is the main area in which Karma lacks. My suggestion is that the slow/speed up numbers are increased, perhaps to the current double gained from Mantra-ing it. With this change, I think it would need a new ability when a Mantra stack is used on it, perhaps a small knock-back (Rammus Powerball size) along the length of the bond. This would, I believe, add an interesting new variety to the ability and make it worth while expending a Mantra stack on it.

    Also, I think the change to Karthus in the first post would fit very well with the current Karthus, nerfing what is so strong about him, without gimping him in other areas.

    And Kudos for the thread idea. =)

  • #4 icytor44

    I would give QoL changes to Trundle, because it is one of the big things that is wrong with him. Also his passive is very weak in terms of actual healing potential, and for some reason I always thought that Volibear having a massive regen heal passive was really weird, and it would be awesome if they gave that passive to Trundle. I mean his lore states that his regeneration is ridiculous, and why he was given every trolls curse, so wouldent he be more befitting of Volibears passive? I also believe that Nautilus needs some buffs to counteract all the nerfs he has gotten since his release, and Sejuani needs a solid buffing as well.

  • #5 killox3

    Definitely agree that Trundle needs QoL updates. Just the fact that with any attack speed causes his Rabid Bite (Q) to actually decrease his damage says to me that he needs an update. Especially so given that it is a large part of his game early on, and the low cool-down encourages frequent use. To me this seems like a rather cruel burden of knowledge disadvantage for newer Trundle players. 

    At the same time I think Trundle's QoL could be improved through a removal of the cast time for his Contaminate (W) and Pillar of Filth (E). Many a time have I, myself cast Pillar of Filth on a fleeing enemy, and in stopping to cast, actually placed it between my target and myself. Very frustrating. 

  • #6 TreeBurrow

    Trundle is still rather balanced, but I do agree that a few QoL changes could improve his game play... Not make him viable, because he's already viable... Not Buff him, because I don't really think he needs buffs... But just making his abilities more fluid and easier to calculate, as you said, having that slight cast time is so painful, it really makes him feel clunky... I don't know that they can come up with a good solution to his Q animation without breaking him and making him OP... I feel that he's perfectly balanced right now, and tampering with his Q animation might kinda, make him too powerful, just, more than average, more than acceptable...

    Your idea about Karthus' passive is an interesting one, I do feel the same way sometimes, in that he doesn't really take a lot of skill to play, when in team-fights... Run in, try to die in the middle, press R... It doesn't have a lot of depth, and i feel that there aren't many good counters to that Karthus' Passive, he just sits there and your team suffers, either you back out and waste a great engage... Or you sit in his passive and take a lot lot of damage... I'm not sure if giving his Passive a CoolDown is the right move... It's a great thought, but I dunno, It just doesn't feel right, my idea would be to reduce the damage he does while dead... Therefore, teams aren't punished quite as harshly for standing in the almost-unavoidable AoE... Karthus now has to play smarter in team-fights... Sure, he can just dive into 5 people and keep laying down the damage, but he's going to have a reduced effect... Maybe... 30% less damage dealt? It's still a hugely benefiial passive, because you can't be interupted at all... But it wouldn't be suer broken... You'd be better off surviving the team-fight, or timing your R propperly, doing it while you were alive so that it dealt that 30% extra damage... You could either go glass cannon, get blown up, and deal 30% less damage during the rest of the fight... Or you could work on your positioning, kite, flee, engage, dance around, try to live, try to build a little bit defensively so that you can live, and clean up fights...

    What if they changed the CoolDown of Karthus' R so that if you use it while you're alive, it has 10-20% less CD, but if you're dead, it has the full CD... Its a small change, but it would encourage people to play risky instead of just running into a fight, dying and pressing R safely... It would make the game more strategical IMO...

  • #7 Scofftastic

    Trundle most certainly needs QoL changes. These aside, his passive is still great, it just doesn't shine in the current jungle where everyone and their brother can clear in good health. He misses the old, brutal jungle. The season 3 jungle should help separate his super healthy first clear from the pack. This new-found relevancy may make future QoL changes more attractive since he should actually be a distinct jungler again.

    I'm glad this thread is getting a bit of love! Keep the ideas coming! Make sure to explain your suggested changes in detail and try not to rapid-fire list champs you feel need changing (not trying to call you out, icytor, just trying to keep us on track).

    More food for thought!

    Shen: Stand United (Ultimate) now has a range of 5500.

    The only global transportation ultimate left in the game probably needs a change. I believe this is another issue of a lack of counter play (banning him doesn't count). He is a bit weak right at the beginning of laning, but can still trade reasonably well against many tops and soon becomes too tanky to burst for almost any top laner. Now, there are characters that bring a similar style such as Malphite and Yorick, who live on dueling power and beef to control a lane. The real issue becomes that Shen literally never has to stop laning. His ultimate allows him to help out in a myriad of situations globally, giving him no reason to ever stop pushing and farming, gaining an advantage through a steady stream of gold and constant minion pressure for the other team. Shen's laning phase never ends. No other character can boast that. Bringing his ultimate down to the same range as Pantheon and Twisted Fate's ultimates makes it useful in the same situations; lane to lane ganks and pressure. The ultimate would still remain powerful, but Shen would actually have to move out of top lane to make plays anywhere but mid and top jungle. As far as jungle Shen goes, his ultimate will still be available to be used in a ton of game-changing situations just by being in the jungle. From the jungle, he will generally be in range to help two of the three lanes instantly. In summary, the general idea wouldn't be to neuter Shen and the awesome plays he can create, but rather make it so he can't always make those plays.

    Edit: I would change my suggested range to 6500, as it should have a range advantage over Pantheon and Twisted Fate's ultimates due to it only being usable on teammates.

    Last edited by Scofftastic on 10/22/2012 6:58:33 PM
  • #8 Scofftastic

    Thanks for the input, TreeBurrow! I think that the idea of hefty damage reduction after death could help the situation a lot. It's kind of a reverse solution compared to mine in that it makes the Karthus player think about his strategy rather than the opponents acting on a weakness. That may actually be a better idea, as forcing the player of the champion in question to make more interesting decisions instead of forcing counter play is probably a healthier form of balance. I mostly like that it also addresses the issue of his ultimate without taking it away from him some of the time. The cooldown suggestion is also interesting, but I think your previous suggestion would be a better blanket solution. Very interesting thoughts.

  • #9 PlantPrion

    I have been thinking A TON about Fiora and how she can become a lot better and more true to the duelist design that she is meant to be. 

    Ok so lets look at the skills that I would change

    Her Q which is her lunge and gap closer that is targeted but can be used twice in quick succesion. 

    Her W which is her parry and also gives passive AD 

    Her R which is the blade dance which makes her untargetable and can hit up to five champions but in a one on one it hits them five times with reduced damage.

    And Also her passive which regains a small amount of health on an auto attack  

    Ok so lets start with her Q. This skill is not necessary weak and a fencer needs a lunge but the thing that with the skill when she engages it is all or nothing because there is no way to get out. My proposal would be to make it more like a Leblanc W and have it so that she can dash twice but ALSO she can come back to a relatively safe place and the go back in. This keeps it so that she can go all in but also she can get out if needed.

    The numbers could be buffed or nerfed on this skill but I think this would solve her problem of being too all in and also make her dueling better because she can juke around the enemy and keep yourself somewhat unpredictable in a one on one fight. Also in teamfights (where I DO NOT think she should shine) it would make her a little better.

    Ok so now on to the W. I think this is weak because while it returns some damage it dose nothing else even if the passive AD is really good the skill just dose nothing else. The way I would change it is make it so that every time there is a parry make it so that it mini stuns the opponent (like .3 seconds or so) and also does less damage. I would keep the passive AD because that just adds to how well she can duel. 

    This change keeps the main concept of the W so it makes it better for dueling and also makes it truer to the duelist idea. 

    Now for her R. This seems much more like a teamfight skill then anything else and a duelist should not have an Ult that goes against her kit of being a duelist. This change is the most radical change of all the skills. My idea would be to almost completely change her Ult! I would make it so that she because invulnerable for a certain amount of AAs or spells. Make it increase per level and it can ONLY be cast on her so it is no like a Kayle Ult. I think this Ult would be powerful enough on its own so that there would be no other buffs to it.

    This Ult would be good for her because it keeps the basic idea of her being invulnerable but makes her more like a Duelist because then its like she is so fast and skilled at fighting that no one can hurt her for a certain amount of time. This means she can go all in or not depending on what the player wants to do and combined with her Q creates what I think would be a really flowing kit.

    For her passive I think that it should be that every time that she uses a spell she could gain a small shield. This makes her really good in a duel because it keeps her a health hight throughout a fight. Her cooldowns would have to be adjusted to make this balanced but I think that will not matter too much for a champion that AA mostly.

    These are my ideas for Fiora Please tell me what is good or bad about it Thanks! 

  • #10 Stetto

    @Karma:

    I think increasing the amount of mantra charges is a wrong approach. Mantra charges should be rare, because they replace her ultimate. They're supposed to have a huge impact, but you should be forced to think twice before using them. The problem is that you need to spam your mantra charges, if you want to achieve anything, during the laning phase.

    If you increase her mantra charges and generation to a point were you can use mantra freely, you could remove the mechanic right away and just buff her abilities. I would even embrace it, if she could only store one mantra charge, if her skill set would be viable without using mantra.

    Her biggest downside is her short range. If I play her as AP carry, I wouldn't need any mantra charges at all (ok, this is exaggerated^^), if her auto attack and Q range were a bit higher. This would actually allow me to save up my two mantra charges, because in her current state her shield is the only spell that can be used without overextending. A range buff, that puts her on par with other AP carries, and a closer look at her numbers, would already make her viable as utility-AP carry, in my opinion. It would faciliate itemization, because you could afford to build less survivability and cooldown reduction, because you would need less mantra charges and would have an easier time positioning yourself.

    I don't play her as support, but I think, that she lacks utility, if you play her as support. Her burst and shield should currently make her strong in a kill lane, if paired up with someone like Pantheon or Xin Zhao. But as soon as her damage becomes negligible, her utility drops massively. Her W feels clunky and her heal is negligible too, without additional AP. If they increase her utility one way or another, she would become a viable support. Currently, there's no reason to pick Karma over Lulu, in my opinion.

    @thread in general:
    I like the idea of this thread. But what's the point of discussing buffs and nerfs, if Riot most likely doesn't look into this forum.

    Of course, it's easier to discuss here, than in the official forum, but the results will be in vain, unless they somehow get presented to Riot.

    Last edited by Stetto on 10/19/2012 8:19:36 AM
  • #11 Scofftastic

    @Stetto

    As you said, I put it on here mostly because it is much easier to have actual discussion on this forum because of the level of traffic. I do wish it was a bit higher, but at least the people here seem to actually discuss instead of spam. It may be fun to try to put this on the official forum, I'm just afraid it will be buried or get filled with useless comments. On the other hand, it may actually get real exposure. For now though, I would like to see if we can just get some nice balance discussion going. I might try it on the official forums in the near future.

    Also, I like your idea for Karma changes. Her current kit does seem to lend itself more towards mid lane, as she has some utility, just not really enough to be a good support. Therefore, buffing her ranges to be on par with other AP mids could be just the thing to bring her out of obscurity. It may not seem like much of a change, but take Swain for example. He received some slight range buffs awhile back and is now considered a pretty decent AP character, mid or top (I prefer him top).

  • #12 St3ko

    Love the thread.

    I've been thinking a bit about rammus recently and I think his taunt duration should be scale less and have a greater flat duration (1.5/1.75/2/2.25/2.5 or just flat 2) to enable him to put some more points in W early to cover for his bad early stats without hurting his ganking too much, while toning down the "forever" taunt once leveled. Since the jungle is getting remade, he will probably be even weaker and would possibly require some stat or general buffs. This change is pretty simple, but I don't see any glaring balance issues with it, I think it would put him in a better spot and return some of his former glory.

  • #13 acerunner

     

    Karthus: Death Defied (passive) now has a cooldown of 4 minutes.

    This I believe would help allow for some real counter play against Karthus, while still keeping his kit intact as a whole. This passive is what makes almost no decision in a team fight scenario a good one against a karthus. Focus him down? You have an invincible Karthus with infinite mana in the middle of your team for the next 7 seconds. Leave him alone? He will still be putting out brutal damage with his Q and messing with your positioning via his W. With this change, he will still be a post-death terror in about half of team fights, but it will give the opposing team a chance to try to force plays while his passive is down. This should hardly affect him in lane, as he probably won't be dying often enough to worry about the passive not being up, nor is laning the place it shines anyway. This change would also make his decisions to use his ultimate a little more interesting. If his passive is down, he will have to make a tougher decision of when to press R. If he uses it early, his team may not be able to take advantage of the damage. However, if he uses it mid-fight he may very well be interrupted. If he doesn't use it at all and dies without his passive, he missed out on a whole lot of his damage potential in the team fight.

    This is an example of the kind of thing that I believe would be interesting and fun to discuss. This is also just an example format. If you think of an easier way to read it, feel free to post your suggestion in that format. This may be a bit ambitious, but I think we can make this a very positive and informational thread. As always, try to be respectful and courteous to others and have fun with it!

    This would absolutely KILL Karthus. As a karthus main this would be an over the top nerf. In defy death you have the ability to cast only 3 Q's before you are able to cast your ultimate. 3. 

    You also have to put this passive in perspective with OTHER post death passives. 

    Anivia's EGG has a 5 minute cooldown and allows her to literally COME BACK TO LIFE. Karthus is already dead. There's no hope. If this was the case they would have to buff the duration by 3-6 seconds to compensate for the cooldown JUST to make it comparable to other post death passives.

     

  • #14 Scofftastic

    @acerunner

    I see your point that my suggested nerf is probably too harsh. The increased duration of the passive that you suggest could possibly compensate for it. Another post suggested that his damage could be reduced during his passive, which may be a better solution. This would probably be easier to balance too.

    @St3ko

    Rammus was my first jungler when I finally got big boy runes post-20. He was really fun and had the potential to carry games, but only at that level it seemed. I think you are very right in that they need to tone down his taunt (standardizing the duration would be even better) so they can buff other parts of his kit. I feel his main issue past the early game weakness is his crippling dependence on blue buff. Every skirmish seems to drain every bit of his mana. It's probably a fine line though. Make his kit too cost-effective mana-wise and he's a ganking machine all over the map. He's very fun though, so I hope they find a happy medium for the armordillo.

  • #15 acerunner

    Quote from Scofftastic »

    @acerunner

    I see your point that my suggested nerf is probably too harsh. The increased duration of the passive that you suggest could possibly compensate for it. Another post suggested that his damage could be reduced during his passive, which may be a better solution. This would probably be easier to balance too.

    @St3ko

    Rammus was my first jungler when I finally got big boy runes post-20. He was really fun and had the potential to carry games, but only at that level it seemed. I think you are very right in that they need to tone down his taunt (standardizing the duration would be even better) so they can buff other parts of his kit. I feel his main issue past the early game weakness is his crippling dependence on blue buff. Every skirmish seems to drain every bit of his mana. It's probably a fine line though. Make his kit too cost-effective mana-wise and he's a ganking machine all over the map. He's very fun though, so I hope they find a happy medium for the armordillo.

    His passive is already pretty limited as is. It doesn't need any buffs OR nerfs.

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