Reign of Gaming

Personally I hate the idea of upgrading my smite into something that I feel obligated to not use on jungle camps.  Add to that you wouldn't want to use a combat smite in a dragon or baron fight.  It just seems too limited.

Honestly getting mana sustain is too annoying in the jungle, so I usually just buy trailblazer.  Health sustain would be easier if there was some armor on juggernaut, but there isn't.  That said, I might get a combat smite on a manaless jungler, esecially one with sustain such as Lee.

Main Junglers: Olaf, Nocturne (maybe Shyvana with the buff, haven't tried her)

This thing has never been nerfed and always been buffed, especially 

• Damage per second increased to 2% from 1.<small>66</small>%.
• Damage-over-time and multi-target spells no longer have reduced effect. 

Still this item is really only good on champions how can AOE apply it over and over (damage over time champions or quasi damage over time champions) such as Zyra, Swain, Rumble, Cass, Malzahar, Fiddle, Teemo, Hymerdinger, Lissandra, Mordekaiser, Singed, Vlad, AP Tirst, Ori, Anivia.

Honestly that's a big list, and it's a core item for at least 1/4 of those champions and decent situationally on others.

V3.10:

• Enabled on Twisted Treeline and Crystal Scar.

V3.03:

• Bug where Liandry's Torment was not dealing damage with damage over time effects or rapid spell damage was fixed.

V3.02: Way better with AOE spells, DOT increased, AP reduced.  So worth.

• Ability power reduced to 50 from 60.
• Damage per second increased to 2% from 1.<small>66</small>%.
• Damage-over-time and multi-target spells no longer have reduced effect.
• Fixed damage effect not being properly reapplied on targets that already have it.

V1.0.0.154: 10 AP for 100 HP, seems good.

• Health increased to 300 from 200.
• Ability power reduced to 60 from 70.

Quote from Selutu jump

Quote from Maple jump

Quote from Selutu jump

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1) Sure, her potential AoE damage is better,

 

2) I think you're seriously underestimating Lightslinger. Depending who gets the drop on who, they will win that fight. However, if Lucian and Vayne walk up and start fighting, Lucian is able to 2 shot her (which is really like 3 shots because of Lightslinger, assuming equal builds)

 

3) You don't play an ad carry for their crowd control unless you're Ashe or Varus. This point is irrelevant and grasping as straws.

 

4) Sure, but like I said in my first post in this thread. Why would I play Miss Fortune for an ad carry with mixed damage when I can play Corki.

 

5) Thats a cute name, shame I've never heard it before. :( When getting dove by, lets say irelia, lucian can still dash while ulting her for 2k damage. Miss Fortune has to choose between canceling her ult or dying to deal 1k damage to her + whoever is in range behind her.

 

6) Shes is a good lane bully, but she trades a lot of mobility and damage in the late game for her good laning phase. Bloodthirster and Black Cleaver changes really hurt her ability to have those massive damage bullet times. If you go the Infinity Edge + Shiv + Last Whisper + Bloodthrister route for a better late game build. It is very auto attack centric and its better to auto attack than cast abilities at that point. Lucian and Corki are both good lane bullies as well, but their abilities empower their auto attack damage at later stages of the game without trading mobility

2) It's mainly dependent on how good the Vayne player is.

3) It's not a main thing going for MF, but it sure helps out a lot, being able to provide a slight bit of utility when behind. Also the slow zone also makes diving you slightly harder.

4) MF roams better than Corki, and I feel like she has a better late-game (this is assuming both carries are able to have sufficient peel, MF's immobility is her biggest flaw)

5) Well if you are picking MF, you're probably going to have a team-comp that focuses on AoE, usually with a Malphite/Jarvan initiation, this means that it's actually pretty hard for the enemy to cancel your ult. If you aren't in that team-comp, I would agree with you that Lucian is better

6) That is true, but as I implied before, the reason you play MF is for AoE damage with a good laning phase (her laning phase is better than Sivir's, since she can actually bully people). If you aren't looking for that, then Lucian and Corki are better. 

Quote from shindaiwa21 jump

1) Far better AoE

If you hit a good Bullet Time, then yes.  Otherwise piercing light has a lot more AOE potential.

2) Better dueling - she's one of the few that can duel Vayne/Draven late-game.

Not unless she's ahead.  Draven can axe crit for around 1K damage.  Between tumble-stealth, double blade actives, and condemn, it's very unlikely MF can duel a competant Vayne either.  Both can interupt bullet time easily and have mobility tools for getting out of it.

3) She has CC, yes it's just a slow, but its a freaking 65% slow.

At level 18 when it's maxed, sure.  The radius isn't that large, nor does the slow last long outside, so most champions can escape it pretty easily.

4) Mixed damage - sure ADCs are supposed to be mainly physical damage and having mixed damage makes ArPen less useful to you, BUT it also have the plus side of being more effective against enemies with Armor.

Not really...  Magic damage is, generally speaking, more effective until LW comes out, then slightly less effective than physical.

5) Bullet Time > The Culling in team-fights. There is a reason why The Culling is nicknamed 'The Cuddling' by people, it does damage, BUT only if you manage to hit it all on 1 person. Bullet Time damages everyone in the cone for a huge chunk of damage.

Although these ults look similar superficially, they have nothing in common.  The culling is a way of dealing damage safely, you can use it while running away, and it has great range.  It's not an AMAZING ultimate, but Lucian's kit is pretty loaded with mobility, burst, and dps elsewhere.  Bullet Time is an AOE teamfighting ulti, but the significant issues with itemization, and the damage is backloaded, as in it gets stronger the longer someone stays in it.  With the ammount of mobile champions in the game, flashes, and the chance it gets interupted, W's unlikely to get stacked that well

6) MF is a better lane bully. People really underestimate her AA > Q > AA burst, also that 50 extra range helps in doing so. Also she has zoning potential, Lucian's zoning potential is rather meh

Lucian's laning phase is just okay.  He's a safe champion with high damage output and a solid powercurve throughout the game, that's why he's played.

It's not bad in lane.  But it's only an AA reset, it doesn't really add any damage at all, given that it can't crit, at 85% AD + 85 damage, which is basically going to be less than regular AA damage at 2 items. It used to have really nice base damage keeping it much more relevant on old MF.  Impure shots also is pretty weak without lots of attack damage, but hard to stack without a good bit of attack speed.  It's also no secret that flat AD itemization is basically non-existent right now, with with IE costing barely more than BT and giving the same AD, and as mentioned, itemizing penetration isn't very good on MF.

I 'mained,' as much as I loath to say that word, MF for season 2 and 3, and am extremely disappointed with her rework.  It feels like all she can do it auto and ulti now, hew burstiness is gone and her build path is terrible.  The only way to make her Q damage scary is triforce (which I usually buy when I play her,) but it's very risky if you get behind.

1) Yeah, of course this is assuming you get a decent amount of time for Bullet TIme. If you are playing an AoE team-comp, like I said above, your initiator is going to be Jarvan/Malphite in which case it does give you a decent amount of time for Bullet TIme.

2) Draven's 1 axe crits for 1K, BUT he's never going to catch his second axe due to MF's E. She doesn't need to be ahead. I'm talking about when both are 6 times. As for Vayne, she CAN duel Vayne, so can Draven, but it can as easily come out in favor for Vayne as for her. Also I think you really underestimate how much MF's AA > Q > AA "burst" hurts, especially since Lifesteal is only 50% useful against her due to Grevious Wounds.

3) You max E first. If you don't then something's wrong with you. Her Q damage increase per rank is minimal and it gives her no waveclear. E gives her the hgihest early game damage as well as the best utility (well it's the only utility).

5) The post I was replying to was stating The Culling > Bullet Time, I'm saying it's not always the case.

6) I'm saying it does quite a bit of damage, and people do underestimate MF's AA > Q > AA damage. Also when you max E, you'r getting a lot of damage form that as well. With MF, you're not playing her for a safe laning phase, you're playing for her AoE damage, with a good laning phase, with good roam on top of it. TriForce is a good item on MF, but there is just no suitable time to buy it. IE rush is no doubt gives the highest damage output, then after that you're grabbing a AS item to make IE better. It's either TriForce, Statikk Shiv or Phantom Dancer. Shiv gives better damage than PD is short bursts, which MF is mor about, and also PD only gives around the same sustained damage as SS during mid-gam. TriForce is way too expensive and you're not getting much AS to make use of IE. Then the third item, since MF is close-ranged, it isn't a bad idea to grab an early defensive component/item. If not, then grab LW if the enemy are getting Armor, otherwise BT is not a bad choice since its still 80 AD. Grabbing TriForce here isn't optimal either, since Phage/Sheen by itself aren't very good items on MF and at this point, it's not unlikely that you'll start buiding an item, then switch to build another due to your needs. BT/Defensive/Pickaxe are all pretty good items to sit on while you finish another item. 

My complaint with Bullet Time is not that it's hard to hit a decent one.  It isn't too bad, especially with J4/Maph/Mumu/Ori type things to set you up.  The problem is that the damage is nflatdmg + x + 2x + 3x + ... nx, meaning the highest damage waves come at the end.  It's very unlikely that people won't have flashed, dashed, or walked out of the ult by the time you get to the strongest part.  It is nice for dueling since when someone runs away with a bunch of impure shot stacks on them bullet time hits really hard as an execution move.

I've shit on plenty of Vaynes in my day with MF, but this claim is perposterous unless MF is quite ahead.  Especially old MF or new Triforce MF had the base damage and base stats to outduel a vanye in the early game, and bully her to grow a significant lead.  I also like MF as a teamfighting vayne counter since bullet time can shred vayne if she tries to fight, and in the least will probably burn the duration of Final Hour for nothing.

Tumble has a 150% AD ratio, can crit.  In addition, you have the BotRK active, the the Ghostblade active, silver bolts (which shit on impure shots as far as damage is concerned,) and a 30/50/70 AD buff from her ulti, and stealth.  There's really no way Vayne should lose this 1v1 unless she's behind or misplays it, even without landing a wall condemn.  Almost any carry that builds BotRK Ghostblade is going to be hard to duel regardless of their kit, and Vayne having an ideal kit for dueling is especially strong.

A draven that only hits one axe?  He should easily be able to hit three, the one he starts out holding, a second one from his Q activation, then throw out a stand asside, catch one of the previous axes, bloodrush and land the third.  His ult is also pretty easy to land on anyone with no dash, and has both high base and scaling damage.

Auto-Q-Auto burst is great in lane, but the damage dies of later in the game.  The main reason for maxing Q is the cooldown, not the base damage which is only helpful in lane.  I might give W-max a shot though, but ending up at 13 with either long Q cooldown or without the 60% AS to capitolize on AA damage seems questionable, though 30% AS for 4 ranks of W is pretty garbage.  Regardless, I've never had any issues laning her, her laning still feels strong enough.

Triforce first for sure if you're gonna do it, and that pretty much goes for any champion.  It's an early game power item.  Maybe ER TF/ER TF could work for spamming out high damage Q's.  I also really like having some chase/kite potential once my passive is down.  TF BotRK LW is my favorite build, and one of the most efficient non-IE builds (why Corki's build it even though it doesnt make that much sense on him.)  Since a fight almost always begins with an Auto-Q-Auto, that triple 8% current proc is pretty burtal.

Quote from Anshin jump

Q already deals a lot of damage if it bounces, so giving it ability to crit would push her over the edge.

IE is superior to BT in her case. Since you have steroid. V- Scepter gives you enough lifesteal if need be.

 It doesn't push sivir or vayne over the edge with their aa-resets.  Why would it do so with MF.  Back when BT LW was the build and Q had 165 base damage, I can see how it would be too much and it didn't matter, but with IE being the core item, it does matter given that it's her only damage spell besides her ulti.

Re: Lucian

MF definitely doesn't have better burst.  Lucian can proc lightslinger 2-3 times easily, which stack shiv very fast, or procs triforce, or procs BotRK twice at full force per passive.  His ratio and base damage on his Q is way better, and he has the mobility to kite or get in on priority targets for assassination type plays.

Bloodthirster is just not viable as a first item without snowballing.  At 300G more, a completed IE offers 70ish damage more per auto attack, the same spell damage, and better scaling.  Essence reaver is an option because hypothetically the CDR increases her Q DPS, and the cost efficiency is better at 3200G.  I never fealt particularly strong running ER or IE though.  I guess I should experiment with some AD stacking builds (ER IE or something, IE GB,) but I haven't had much desire to play the champion lately, as her power curve really feels late-game oriented without the payoff (loving the Kog, wrecking face with triforce and huge damage.)  Also having an onhit damage "steroid" and being forced to build AD to scale it is pretty annoying.

Triforce BotRK LW is my favorite build since that trifroce + triple botrk proc is pretty painful, but with no base damages to fall back on it's pretty pathetic if you're behind at all, though that seems generally to be the case with MF given her crap ratios and base damages.  Triforce ER LW with lucidity might be worth trying.

I think it's mostly about the itemization changes.  When old-Bloodthirster was the standard opening item, lots of ADC's had strong 1-item power spikes (graves, mf, varus, caitlyn, lucian, sivir, jinx.)  WIth infinity edge, it's more like, finished IE, now I don't suck.  Add more crit, starting to get strong.

Corki and Kog'Maw have the best 1-item spike because of triforce, though obviously Kog is a much more dangerous and situational pick.  Corki is also better with just a trifroce, Kog needs his Triforce Blade before he's a total monster.

The BotRK carries also had their early power nerfed with the 4.10 blade changes as well, though they can still be very strong if they get through laning.

Unfortunately I think Riot will just nerf Corki rather than address the itemization situation.  I guess once they knock off Corki, everyone will be stuck sucking with IE first again.  Especially for champions like Sivir, IE first is just bad.  There should be a flat damage option with comperable cost efficiency.  Essense Reaver might be there with another minor buff.

I think a kick system could work, as long as it's unanimous, with the exception of it being targetted on a player in a DuoQ, which would only require 3.

The real issue with this is people would just use it to dodge.  One way to remedy this would be to kick the player be replaced by queing for a single player.  You'd need like 10s after each pick set to cancel and kick though, otherwise it could again be used to dodge bad matchups.

Having players observe champion select would be kinda sketchy, since it would be there discretion about meta picks, etc

Lucian's laning phase is just okay.  He's a safe champion with high damage output and a solid powercurve throughout the game, that's why he's played.

I 'mained,' as much as I loath to say that word, MF for season 2 and 3, and am extremely disappointed with her rework.  It feels like all she can do it auto and ulti now, hew burstiness is gone and her build path is terrible.  The only way to make her Q damage scary is triforce (which I usually buy when I play her,) but it's very risky if you get behind.

Varus is underrated.  His poke damage is pretty sick, his ult is fairly handy, and his DPS is pretty good.  The only real issue is (as everyone will say) he's immobile.  His laning phase is pretty strong.

Build him

Brutalizer + BF + Pickaxe --> IE --> Ghostblade --> LW --> BotRK

w. Zerks in there somewhere.

Since you always want to target squishies with piercing arrow anyway, the flat pen is super effective and will basically remove a squishy from a fight in one-shit.  Between his passive, zerks, ghostblade active, and his need to cast spells, I find no issue with delaying attack speed until my last item.  Old-BT LW was better, but this build is actually pretty similar in power.  Caitlyn should build the same for the same reasons if you're interested in her.  She's probably slightly better, but play whatever you feel comfortable on, both are viable for sure.  You can basically blind pick cait and not give a shit, while with varus it's better to see some of the enemy team.  He also has the advantage that nobody knows what his trade damage will be like in lane since nobody plays him.

Quote from Chromabluesjump

Botrk is still very good item on him since it provides him movement boost needed to escape and help shredding tanks (which he already is doing very good). My usuall S3 build was botrk -> IE -> LW AND THIS WAS A STANDART IN EARLY S3. Only later "Legolas" build was becoming more popular.

 

Varus became popular when BotRK was reworked for 2850 with 40% AS and 30 AD if I recall.  People rushed BotRK on absolutely everyone.  While BotRK IE LW is efficient for almost every ADC, the buildpath is a bit clunky and expensive.  The legolass build, BT LW, was most a reaction to his E being nerfed and his Q being buffed along with the BotRK balancing to 3200g.  Hosan from dragonborns popularized that build if I recall, along with Genja in his NO ATTACK SPEED EVER phase.

Boots: Lucidity are optimal, since they add the dash and allow for more doubleshot procs.

IE --> SS --> LW + BT is the most standard build, and is probably the best, however it leaves a kind of shitty early game.  SS gets charged so fast by doubleshot, e-spam, and running around culling people, that it's incredibly effective.  Mana-cheap pushing is also really nice.

Brutalizer + BF + Pickaxe --> IE --> Ghostblade --> LW + BotRK/BT  Definately a stronger early game with better spell damage, but things get awkward later, where you can end up with a suboptimal stat mix at 3 items.  Unfortunately tends to require Zerks to patch up the attackspeed.

Brutalizer + Cutlass --> BotRK --> Ghostblade --> IE + LW  Good for 1v1's and if you can't ever bank a B.F. in lane.  Pretty efficient.  As far as teamfighting goes, you'll suffer a bit at 2 items when your spell damage is dipping and your critchance is low.  BotRK is great on lucian since doubleshot applies two full BotRK procs, and it adds to his dueling/kite potential.

Triforce --> LW + BotRK/BT/ER --> IE Really strong laning phase build path.  The mid-game can get a bit rough though with no crit, so I don't recommend it if you aren't ahead.  BotRK is the best DPS by far.

IE SS or IE GB should be the go to builds, with IE SS prefered, but IE GB is fine if you can't get an early B.F and need the brutalizer for combat effectiveness.  BotRK GB is nice when behind, as it's cheap, builds from small components, artificially inflates your dueling potential, and still offers good anti-tank dps.  Triforce is good for snowballing if you can't afford the BF, the components are great for growing an advantage, and the DPS is fine with BotRK LW.  Personally I prefer an AS item on lucian, as full AD builds tend to force him to use his spells for doubleshot procs to keep his DPS up, while I can hammer away at a tanky target with some AS and not be forced to burn spells (especially E) when I don't need to.

P.S.  If you're going 6 offensive items, gets double lifesteal (usually BotRK + BT)  The tradeoff with other damage items is negligable and the survivability/draintanking are necessary, especially on a carry with crap range like lucian.

TBH I think the main reason for taking 21 offense isn't practicality, it's doubt.  I didn't get that kill because I didn't take execute mastery/damage mastery/pen mastery.  When you take 21 offense you don't have to constantly wonder if you've fucked yourself by taking more utility oriented masteries.

Normally I take 9/21/0 in top because I like the tenacity and good value resistance stats, and just want offense for the last hitting stats.

9/21/0 jungle to take less damage.  Sometimes I also take 9/11/10 when I want buff duration on mana-junglers.  Not popular apparently, and TBH I haven't compared the 21/9 clears to the 9/21 clears.

0/14/16 or 0/9/21 for support.  I just don't see the offense tree as rewarding.  But I still take gold quints cause my season 2 never ended...  I really value the starting gold + tankiness/damage reduction

Sometimes I take 17/13/0 on top lane mages, handy for getting some extra damage reduction while still getting most of the offense goodies.

9/21/0 can be good on ADC for playing against caitlyn.

Mostly I think the impact of runes beyond 5 mins is pretty overrated.