I can't help but notice that squishy utility supports suffered a bit from the tank meta. Nami, Janna or Sona - without damage or tankiness they're left basically only with their utility, that usually has quite long cooldowns and if the single well-placed Sona's ult was gamechanging when assassins ruled over the SR, now it will only stop these immowable meat walls for a moment before they'll continue slowly, but effectively tickle your carry to death.
Of course utility supports are still effective, but being useful is much harder now and teamfights last for so long that you'll usually find yourself completely OOM in the process.
What are your opinions on that subject? Are utility supports in a poor position now?
Depends on the team comp, having both your jungle and top building for survivability it actually allows more breathing space to pick what support you feel benefits your comp more. While CC is less effective against tanks as you aim to eat the CC for your team and won't die during that time it is also true for the champions you mentioned that their sustain abilities are more potent, as the less damage you take the more you can heal/shield and keep your carries healthy. Arguably "damage supports" such as Annie and Zyra have their effectiveness reduced because of the meta but utility should still be high. One thing that benefits tank supports in this meta however is the fact they can get better use of Face of the Mountain as they have multiple targets they can shield that have good resistances for it to last longer.
Imo, healing supports are better in this meta cause of the extended tf. Soraka, sona and nami benefit greatly, more time for heals, less threat of dying as there are not as many assassins. Damaging supports like annie and zyra are worse though as ccing a tank doesn't do much and they won't drop their hp bars anytime soon :P
I personally don't think so, but they are a bit harder to be useful due to the current meta. I still have success with supports like Zyra and Sona, so I have no issues really. Also, I am able to survive a lot longer because I don't see that many assassins anymore, so I can provide utility to my team more often.
I'd say some certainly suffer. Nami; for example; has her heal which is flat, which is not exactly useful when you consider Cinderhulk tanks, and if she's jumped on she dies generally. Janna is also weaker; although not as bad as Nami because she's the disengage god; and I wouldn't play Sona at all right now unless part of a wombo combo. Soraka's heals don't mean as much when they are a small proportion of target's health.
On the other hand; some utility supports really shine. Lulu has always been said to be just as good at supporting tanks and bruisers as carries; since her ultimate can be used not only as a protective tool but as a godly engage tool; knocking up the entire enemy team as your tank dives in and giving an aura slow; while you can use them as a Glitterlance platform. Not to mention Whimsy is great for tanks. While Janna is weaker she's still strong [There isn't really a meta where Janna is weak; unless a full-poke meta shows up or something, and even then she can be used to stop engagement attempts on poke teams]
The supports who came off the best are ones with high levels of C.C or peel; to chain C.C targets; or to get a beefcake off your backline after they've blown their engage tool [Very few tanks have low cooldown mobility; about the closest you get is tank Xin Zhao's Audacious Charge]. On the other hand more damage/healing focused supports [EG: Sona] suffer. The bulkier supports like Braum and Leona are basically the same, and Thresh is Thresh and will forever be dumb and relevant until he is reworked completely.
The 'pokey Mage supports' are pretty much out of it right now. Vel'Koz is pretty much useless at the moment since while his peel is good it's not as good as Lulu's and 180 passive true damage is pointless in the grand scheme of 4k+ hp [Vel'Koz is like a more damage/poke-oriented Lulu]. Zyra's not in as bad a place as Vel'Koz but she's not in a good spot either.
I think they are pretty good right now, not amazing, but someone like Janna is still very good. Other ones though, I guess the healing based ones are still good since they can keep the tanks alive and can use their healings more since teamfights are longer.
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I'd say some certainly suffer. Nami; for example; has her heal which is flat, which is not exactly useful when you consider Cinderhulk tanks, and if she's jumped on she dies generally. Janna is also weaker; although not as bad as Nami because she's the disengage god; and I wouldn't play Sona at all right now unless part of a wombo combo. Soraka's heals don't mean as much when they are a small proportion of target's health.
On the other hand; some utility supports really shine. Lulu has always been said to be just as good at supporting tanks and bruisers as carries; since her ultimate can be used not only as a protective tool but as a godly engage tool; knocking up the entire enemy team as your tank dives in and giving an aura slow; while you can use them as a Glitterlance platform. Not to mention Whimsy is great for tanks. While Janna is weaker she's still strong [There isn't really a meta where Janna is weak; unless a full-poke meta shows up or something, and even then she can be used to stop engagement attempts on poke teams]
The supports who came off the best are ones with high levels of C.C or peel; to chain C.C targets; or to get a beefcake off your backline after they've blown their engage tool [Very few tanks have low cooldown mobility; about the closest you get is tank Xin Zhao's Audacious Charge]. On the other hand more damage/healing focused supports [EG: Sona] suffer. The bulkier supports like Braum and Leona are basically the same, and Thresh is Thresh and will forever be dumb and relevant until he is reworked completely.
The 'pokey Mage supports' are pretty much out of it right now. Vel'Koz is pretty much useless at the moment since while his peel is good it's not as good as Lulu's and 180 passive true damage is pointless in the grand scheme of 4k+ hp [Vel'Koz is like a more damage/poke-oriented Lulu]. Zyra's not in as bad a place as Vel'Koz but she's not in a good spot either.
That's if you're healing tanks which is not very useful in the first place. Healing your carries when attacked by tanks is useful though and you will probably get of multiple heals due to the extended fight.
CC tanky supports are still good ofc and I agree with lulu being stronger due to her synergy with diving tanks.
I personally love sona in this meta. You can keep your carrys alive while still dealing kinda decent damage with great ultility. (and the insane synergy with ardent censer)
You are also able to just kite for days with your ms.
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"The Art of Peeling, or being a bodyguard, is a very important notion that needs to be learned by players especially those who prefer to play tanks and support champions. It has become even more important as the tank meta is here and Riot intends for it to stay. I've seen teams with multiple tanks all focus on trying to initiate or kill the enemy team and they leave their soft carries behind only for them to get sniped and killed because they have no bodyguards. (...)
The truth of the matter is that most champions can peel but the effectiveness of each champion varies depending on the strength of their abilities. You don't have to be a tank or a support to become a bodyguard but it is much more common for that subtype of champions to excel in this. The three governing factors of peeling tools are immediacy, frequency and intensity. Basically how fast it is, how often can it be deployed and how powerful it is. Abilities can be strong in one factor and weak in the others, strong in more than one factor, average in all, basically most tools in the game are versatile."
I can go into more detail if you want to but I think that should be enough for now~ So no, I don't think utility supports are in a bad spot. I'd say it's quite the opposite, spamable utility is even better than before, be it due to the lack of burst - Try to kill an ADC as Sion if you get knocked up and slowed several times by a Janna while she is also shielding the ADC - or shields and heals making tanks even more tanky - there is a difference between healing/shielding an ADC with little resistances for 500 HP or healing/shielding a tank with a lot of resistances for 500 HP. Granted, you should primarly heal or shield your ADC if they get attacked but AoE shields and heals are a thing ;p
Squishy healing supports are weak right now in my opinion, since it requires a lot of effort and resources to top off a 5k hp tank. On the other hand Janna provides good disengage and gives tanks a hard time to initiate greatly shine, especially since she can boost the DPS of the ADC.
Also, I think Lulu support has some uses, as she can make tanks even a bigger threat.
I think they are fine, they offer a lot of benefit if your backline has a better late than the one of the opposing team. It's just annoying they can actually go oom in extended fights.
Janna, Nami, and Zyra are all well positioned. Karma is astonishingly good. Vel'Koz does well IF his team has lockdown. It's all give and take. It's harder to pick a squishy support blindly into a comp, but they aren't poorly situated.
i Say they are fine, but like Devicer said, they are more situational in the team comp but you can usually get away with it a vast majority of the time.
throw that shield on your tanks, the bonus AD'll last way longer on them anyway
Not like I'm Janna god but I don't think that should be it's primary use.
On topic tho, on the contrary - maybe it's time for the Zyra support?
I mean we're talking in the context of your adc being useless that game and your tank carrying
A lot of people think Janna can only shield her adc for some reason but like, if your sejuani is your only hope then fuck yeah throw that shield on her so she can carry harder
and yeah idk why people don't run zyra support w/ liandries more often, she's rly good at weakening tanks before they engage on you
I think Panda is pretty much spot on with this, Raikaria, and Devicer as well. In terms of what supports offer the following is true:
Shields - Are buffed, placing them on a high defense tank increases their duration, they also last longer on squishier targets as damage towards them is lower
Heals - Are buffed, but only if % heals on tanks, or flat heals on carries. This again has to do with the reduced damage output received by carries.
Long cooldown hard cc - Nerfed, it doesn't stop tanks long enough for you to take them out, they will just continue to get to your carries
Short cooldown cc - Very good as peeling tanks off your carries, you need to short cooldown for it to be consistently applied (think Karma/Lulu)
Damage - Reduced in effectiveness, unless you are doing % damage you are going to be doing a smaller amount of damage to the higher health tanks. You can now also freely flame your Velkoz supports as flat true damage is directly countered by the new health meta of cinderhulk.
Tankiness - Not as necessary on supports at the moment, you will no doubt have at least one dedicated tank in one role and either another tank or off-tank with today's meta. You are now free to support how you see fit, peeling for your carries and keeping them healthy. You don't need to worry as much about assassin's one shotting you as they are less prevalent with the current run of tanks.
I think that's about it. Feel free to comment on whether you think I missed anything.
TL:DR - Utility and low cooldown cc is buffed helping utility supports, damage supports are generally weaker, tank supports are still strong however not as strongly required. Lulu and Karma are both in really good shape as they provide both shields and short cooldown cc, Sona is also quite good as her W can provide both heal and shields although her peeling has been nerfed unless you can help kite with E.
I'm kind of at a loss at the minute when it comes to what to play as Support.
My most played is Zyra, I like the ability to step up and carry games if others are having a bad game. The mix of sustained and burst damage and low mana costs seem to work whatever the team.
After her I don't know, I've played some:
- Nami but I feel more of a spectator, most teammates only understand "dive in" and nami is best peeling.
- Sona seems good in lane if you can poke out the enemy duo. Mid game isn't great, need AP for the shield+heal to be effective. I think she lacks CC for my play style. Blue build is fun and with Gauntlet offers CC so might give that more of a go.
Thresh is always good but I don't tend to play him for some reason.
Other options?
- Brand: Looks interesting with carry ability and tank killing.
- Lulu: I seem to like Yodals (don't hate me!) but never played her
- Morgana: Just realised I haven't played her for so long! One of my favourite champions! Doh. Spell vamp to keep hp topped up in long fights, pool can hurt tanks when they get low (good combo with BotRK adc).
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PlatinumI can't help but notice that squishy utility supports suffered a bit from the tank meta. Nami, Janna or Sona - without damage or tankiness they're left basically only with their utility, that usually has quite long cooldowns and if the single well-placed Sona's ult was gamechanging when assassins ruled over the SR, now it will only stop these immowable meat walls for a moment before they'll continue slowly, but effectively tickle your carry to death.
Of course utility supports are still effective, but being useful is much harder now and teamfights last for so long that you'll usually find yourself completely OOM in the process.
What are your opinions on that subject? Are utility supports in a poor position now?
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Depends on the team comp, having both your jungle and top building for survivability it actually allows more breathing space to pick what support you feel benefits your comp more. While CC is less effective against tanks as you aim to eat the CC for your team and won't die during that time it is also true for the champions you mentioned that their sustain abilities are more potent, as the less damage you take the more you can heal/shield and keep your carries healthy. Arguably "damage supports" such as Annie and Zyra have their effectiveness reduced because of the meta but utility should still be high. One thing that benefits tank supports in this meta however is the fact they can get better use of Face of the Mountain as they have multiple targets they can shield that have good resistances for it to last longer.
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Goldhave to disagree RE: Janna
throw that shield on your tanks, the bonus AD'll last way longer on them anyway
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DiamondNot like I'm Janna god but I don't think that should be it's primary use.
On topic tho, on the contrary - maybe it's time for the Zyra support?
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PlatinumI think they are fine, unless you lane against Nautilus. That guy is tough. Besides, I see Janna used all the time, somewhat less true for Sona/Nami.
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GoldImo, healing supports are better in this meta cause of the extended tf. Soraka, sona and nami benefit greatly, more time for heals, less threat of dying as there are not as many assassins. Damaging supports like annie and zyra are worse though as ccing a tank doesn't do much and they won't drop their hp bars anytime soon :P
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GoldI personally don't think so, but they are a bit harder to be useful due to the current meta. I still have success with supports like Zyra and Sona, so I have no issues really. Also, I am able to survive a lot longer because I don't see that many assassins anymore, so I can provide utility to my team more often.
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GoldIt's a mix and match.
I'd say some certainly suffer. Nami; for example; has her heal which is flat, which is not exactly useful when you consider Cinderhulk tanks, and if she's jumped on she dies generally. Janna is also weaker; although not as bad as Nami because she's the disengage god; and I wouldn't play Sona at all right now unless part of a wombo combo. Soraka's heals don't mean as much when they are a small proportion of target's health.
On the other hand; some utility supports really shine. Lulu has always been said to be just as good at supporting tanks and bruisers as carries; since her ultimate can be used not only as a protective tool but as a godly engage tool; knocking up the entire enemy team as your tank dives in and giving an aura slow; while you can use them as a Glitterlance platform. Not to mention Whimsy is great for tanks. While Janna is weaker she's still strong [There isn't really a meta where Janna is weak; unless a full-poke meta shows up or something, and even then she can be used to stop engagement attempts on poke teams]
The supports who came off the best are ones with high levels of C.C or peel; to chain C.C targets; or to get a beefcake off your backline after they've blown their engage tool [Very few tanks have low cooldown mobility; about the closest you get is tank Xin Zhao's Audacious Charge]. On the other hand more damage/healing focused supports [EG: Sona] suffer. The bulkier supports like Braum and Leona are basically the same, and Thresh is Thresh and will forever be dumb and relevant until he is reworked completely.
The 'pokey Mage supports' are pretty much out of it right now. Vel'Koz is pretty much useless at the moment since while his peel is good it's not as good as Lulu's and 180 passive true damage is pointless in the grand scheme of 4k+ hp [Vel'Koz is like a more damage/poke-oriented Lulu]. Zyra's not in as bad a place as Vel'Koz but she's not in a good spot either.
I think they are pretty good right now, not amazing, but someone like Janna is still very good. Other ones though, I guess the healing based ones are still good since they can keep the tanks alive and can use their healings more since teamfights are longer.
Betrayer... In truth, it was I who was betrayed. Still, I am hunted. Still, I am hated. Now, my blind eyes see what others cannot: that sometimes the hand of fate must be forced! Now go forth... unleash the tides of Doom... Upon all those...who would oppose us.
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GoldThat's if you're healing tanks which is not very useful in the first place. Healing your carries when attacked by tanks is useful though and you will probably get of multiple heals due to the extended fight.
CC tanky supports are still good ofc and I agree with lulu being stronger due to her synergy with diving tanks.
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PlatinumI personally love sona in this meta. You can keep your carrys alive while still dealing kinda decent damage with great ultility. (and the insane synergy with ardent censer)
You are also able to just kite for days with your ms.
"Don't judge a man by his normal games."
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Honestly I play like a hyperagressive shitheaded tryhard in normals...
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ModeratorI've been writting like five whole posts now but kept on deleting them since I'm not sure I get my point across... I'll just keep it simple now.
I'd say that CC is less impactful but even more important than ever (If that makes sense). Utility overall is also better than before.
I'll quote from Stonewall's article about Peeling http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/stonewall/31165-the-art-of-peeling-tools-of-the-trade-part-1
"The Art of Peeling, or being a bodyguard, is a very important notion that needs to be learned by players especially those who prefer to play tanks and support champions. It has become even more important as the tank meta is here and Riot intends for it to stay. I've seen teams with multiple tanks all focus on trying to initiate or kill the enemy team and they leave their soft carries behind only for them to get sniped and killed because they have no bodyguards. (...)
The truth of the matter is that most champions can peel but the effectiveness of each champion varies depending on the strength of their abilities. You don't have to be a tank or a support to become a bodyguard but it is much more common for that subtype of champions to excel in this. The three governing factors of peeling tools are immediacy, frequency and intensity. Basically how fast it is, how often can it be deployed and how powerful it is. Abilities can be strong in one factor and weak in the others, strong in more than one factor, average in all, basically most tools in the game are versatile."
I can go into more detail if you want to but I think that should be enough for now~ So no, I don't think utility supports are in a bad spot. I'd say it's quite the opposite, spamable utility is even better than before, be it due to the lack of burst - Try to kill an ADC as Sion if you get knocked up and slowed several times by a Janna while she is also shielding the ADC - or shields and heals making tanks even more tanky - there is a difference between healing/shielding an ADC with little resistances for 500 HP or healing/shielding a tank with a lot of resistances for 500 HP. Granted, you should primarly heal or shield your ADC if they get attacked but AoE shields and heals are a thing ;p
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DiamondSquishy healing supports are weak right now in my opinion, since it requires a lot of effort and resources to top off a 5k hp tank. On the other hand Janna provides good disengage and gives tanks a hard time to initiate greatly shine, especially since she can boost the DPS of the ADC.
Also, I think Lulu support has some uses, as she can make tanks even a bigger threat.
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PlatinumI think they are fine, they offer a lot of benefit if your backline has a better late than the one of the opposing team. It's just annoying they can actually go oom in extended fights.
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DiamondJanna, Nami, and Zyra are all well positioned. Karma is astonishingly good. Vel'Koz does well IF his team has lockdown. It's all give and take. It's harder to pick a squishy support blindly into a comp, but they aren't poorly situated.
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Diamondi Say they are fine, but like Devicer said, they are more situational in the team comp but you can usually get away with it a vast majority of the time.
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GoldI mean we're talking in the context of your adc being useless that game and your tank carrying
A lot of people think Janna can only shield her adc for some reason but like, if your sejuani is your only hope then fuck yeah throw that shield on her so she can carry harder
and yeah idk why people don't run zyra support w/ liandries more often, she's rly good at weakening tanks before they engage on you
I think Panda is pretty much spot on with this, Raikaria, and Devicer as well. In terms of what supports offer the following is true:
Shields - Are buffed, placing them on a high defense tank increases their duration, they also last longer on squishier targets as damage towards them is lower
Heals - Are buffed, but only if % heals on tanks, or flat heals on carries. This again has to do with the reduced damage output received by carries.
Long cooldown hard cc - Nerfed, it doesn't stop tanks long enough for you to take them out, they will just continue to get to your carries
Short cooldown cc - Very good as peeling tanks off your carries, you need to short cooldown for it to be consistently applied (think Karma/Lulu)
Damage - Reduced in effectiveness, unless you are doing % damage you are going to be doing a smaller amount of damage to the higher health tanks. You can now also freely flame your Velkoz supports as flat true damage is directly countered by the new health meta of cinderhulk.
Tankiness - Not as necessary on supports at the moment, you will no doubt have at least one dedicated tank in one role and either another tank or off-tank with today's meta. You are now free to support how you see fit, peeling for your carries and keeping them healthy. You don't need to worry as much about assassin's one shotting you as they are less prevalent with the current run of tanks.
I think that's about it. Feel free to comment on whether you think I missed anything.
TL:DR - Utility and low cooldown cc is buffed helping utility supports, damage supports are generally weaker, tank supports are still strong however not as strongly required. Lulu and Karma are both in really good shape as they provide both shields and short cooldown cc, Sona is also quite good as her W can provide both heal and shields although her peeling has been nerfed unless you can help kite with E.
I'm kind of at a loss at the minute when it comes to what to play as Support.
My most played is Zyra, I like the ability to step up and carry games if others are having a bad game. The mix of sustained and burst damage and low mana costs seem to work whatever the team.
After her I don't know, I've played some:
- Nami but I feel more of a spectator, most teammates only understand "dive in" and nami is best peeling.
- Sona seems good in lane if you can poke out the enemy duo. Mid game isn't great, need AP for the shield+heal to be effective. I think she lacks CC for my play style. Blue build is fun and with Gauntlet offers CC so might give that more of a go.
Thresh is always good but I don't tend to play him for some reason.
Other options?
- Brand: Looks interesting with carry ability and tank killing.
- Lulu: I seem to like Yodals (don't hate me!) but never played her
- Morgana: Just realised I haven't played her for so long! One of my favourite champions! Doh. Spell vamp to keep hp topped up in long fights, pool can hurt tanks when they get low (good combo with BotRK adc).
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DiamondThem not getting one-shot by the jungle Lee Sin/Vi anymore is bonus. Janna/Lulu are still utterly fantastic.